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- comics@lemmy.ml
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Politicians from those countries are under enormous Public Opinion pressure to “do something” to Stop Israel (for example, in Britain 500 THOUSAND people demonstrated against the Genocide).
So the politicians in power do the most innefective “something” imaginable.
The simplest most surperficial reading of this is: see, they did “something” and even if small “it’s a step forward” - you see a lot of posters here doing that reading.
An analysis with even just the tiniest bit of depth yields the possibility that, by choosing to do the least effective thing they could do now, they’re diffusing some of that Public Opinion pressure thus delaying the time when the pressure is so big they have to do something that actually hurts Israel, like Sanctions.
If that is the case, then this action is in fact negative rather than merely meaningless or “a small step forward”, because it gives Israel more time to exterminate Palestinians and steal more of their land - it means more deaths rather than fewer and a worse future (as more of them get dispossessed) rather than a better one.
Given that all these countries are still sending weapons to Israel, and the UK - which was the initiator of all this - is even running surveillance flights over Gaza and giving the info to Israel, it seems to me that the “it’s a delaying action to give room for Israel to take their Final Solution further” explanation is far more likely than the idea that this is being done with a genuine intent of helping Palestinians.
Exactly. As someone from the UK, I find it nothing more than placating to public pressure, but don’t get it twisted we are still selling them weapons and running recon flights for Israel to then murder people.
Can’t they just nuke Israel?
That would count as doing something
Unfortunately there are good people there, not just nazis. and I haven’t heard of a bomb that discriminates yet
Can’t they just throw a biological bomb tailored towards Jewish genes?
oh come on.
That’s the less polluting solution. We must take the environment into consideration when talking about purging
Still better than Trump smearing the blood of dead Palestinian civilians all over his face as a cheap replacement for his normal clown makeup
Comparing the height of an ant to the width of a hair becomes rather meaningless when you’re trying to get through the second-storey window of a burning building. What you have given is the lowest possible bar, as the person they’re supposedly better than is actively suborning genocide.
That defeatist attitude is how Trump got reelected.
Don’t let perfect become the enemy of good enough, and don’t let someone else’s good enough become the enemy of “it’s a start.”
In the political scene, recognizing statehood is the first step, because it becomes state vs state instead of state vs its own people. It doesn’t erase the atrocities that happened, but it opens a door for reparations in the future.
Consider: Alice, Bob and Charlie have been bullying Devin since he was in first grade. They mock him for the color of his skin and his religion. Worse, in second grade, they used to try to convert Devin by beating him to a bloody pulp. Whenever he tries to engage with the class, they say he’s immature, to the point where Bob and Charlie decided at the beginning of fifth grade to literally carve up their bullying schedule, so they could micromanage every aspect of Devin’s school life.
This bullying got a lot worse in secondary school, however, when the three bullies changed their attitude toward another student those three used to bully: Devin’s cousin Eli. They used to rough up Eli just like Devin, but one day in the fifth grade, one of the bullies’ other friends, Frank, went too far. Frank beat up Eli so badly that Eli got left with a permanent scar on his face. Alice and Bob had to literally drag Frank off of Eli, while Frank, in his fit of rage, took swings at them, too, and literally decked Charlie, since he was the first one to try to speak up against Frank’s wrath. Frank got punished, and actually ended up working to protect Eli a few times after that. So, when Eli came back from summer vacation with new muscles, still bearing that scar that marked his own trauma, Alice, Bob and Charlie actually took Eli into their clique. He was still their underling (can’t have too many ideas floating in his head), but now, Alice, Bob and Charlie don’t actively bully Devin as much. Worse, they’ve convinced Eli that he’s “better” than Devin, and Eli and Devin have never been close. In Devin’s weakness, Eli sees that old pain, and seeks to destroy that grim reflection of his own past. He’s better than that. Better than Devin.
So now, in secondary school, Devin is constantly terrorised by Eli, with Alice, Bob and Charlie cheerfully egging Eli on at every opportunity. Alice even hands Eli different weapons and suggests new pranks, while stepping in any time Devin gets too “uppity”.
Today, Eli went too far. Eli went to his cousin’s house next door, and he started livestreaming. He brought Alice, Bob and Charlie on the stream, and started beating up Devin. He trashed Devin’s house, with Alice, Bob and Charlie actively encouraging Eli out loud on the stream. Eli started looting his room. Then, he found Devin. Alice told Eli to pick up a metal lamp, and Eli knew what to do with it. A single crack to the side of the head was all it took to floor Devin. Then, Eli. Kept. Hitting. He’s been caving Devin’s skull in with his shoe for the last five minutes, occasionally taking a break to stomp on a finger or gouge an eye. Meanwhile, Alice, Bob and Charlie are in the comments, quieting anyone who dares suggest that this is wrong. They are immediately banning anyone who likens this to Frank’s attack, saying that these people must hate Eli.
It is already clear on the video stream that, if Devin even survives this, he will be permanently mangled. In his rage, Eli just knocked over a candle, and the curtains just caught fire.
After another 15 seconds, Bob and Charlie are telling Eli to stop. They’re calling out, saying that Devin’s a person too. They won’t go so far as to liken it to what Frank did to Eli, but they are now vocally suggesting that Eli is in Devin’s house. Of course, everyone knows that Eli is in Devin’s house. But maybe, if they say “Eli, wait, you’re in Devin’s house”, and slowly build up to more bold claims (“Devin has human rights”, “you’re hurting him”, and other similarly useless and performative claims at this late juncture), then maybe people will forget that Bob and Charlie have been terrorising Devin for his entire existence, and were actively supporting Eli’s rampage until ten seconds ago.
Would you say that Bob and Charlie are “doing the right thing” by acknowledging, on stream, that Eli shouldn’t be in Devin’s house? The one that’s actively on fire?
Are Bob and Charlie “making good steps toward a solution”?
Now, Ned has been watching this stream since the beginning, and has been in the same class as everyone since kindergarten. Ned suggested trying to call the cops when Eli first decked Devin, but Alice convinced Ned that it wasn’t serious enough. Ned wants to call the cops again now, and report Alice, Bob, Charlie and Eli for their roles in what is rapidly progressing towards Murder. But Bob and Charlie are saying things that are mildly positive about Devin. Would giving their names to the cops be “letting perfect be the enemy of good”?
That’s a strawman argument. You’re attributing arbitrary personalities and intents to Alice, Bob, and Charlie. Governments are not individual people. And even if we ignore all of that, people are allowed to be wrong in the past, if they make good faith attempts to rectify things in the future. Otherwise it becomes eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and resentment all around.
OK, first, if we’re going to try calling out specific fallacies: that’s a slippery slope fallacy, and expecting remedial action and/or accountability does not automatically lead to Hammurabi’s Deathtrap.
As regards the behaviour of world powers in a way that is perfectly analogous to bullies, with stated intentions and past actions to use as guides, what, precisely, do you believe I have ascribed as far as personalities are concerned? I can list specific events which are analogous to every event in that narrative, from sykes-picot to the crusades, the holocaust to white phosphorus raining over Gaza. Also, whose argument are you suggesting I am strawmanning? Netanyahu with his government’s stated intent to “destroy” Gaza? These governments, who’ve been too busy jailing people for calling them out for genocide to actually give a shit about, you know, the genocide?!
Other than all of that, sure, what about this exemplifies “good faith” to you? This appears, to me, to be nothing more than Realpolitik, using this move as a way to try to convince their people to stop calling out their complicity in genocide, without actually doing anything to stop the genocide. Is there some actual commitment to action that this entails, or is it just words amounting to “we support the right of Palestinians to self govern, at some point in the hypothetical future where they continue to exist as a distinct people”. There is a difference between performative words and concrete action. If they intend to wash their hands of their deeds, then words are a shitty solvent at so late a juncture.
While the US directly supplies weapons, funding, and openly encourages escalation against Palestine, while we threaten and extort these countries from recognizing Palestinian statehood, you claim no discernable difference between these two stances. Maybe a timeless god would see things your way but here in this shitty reality this is about as stark as the contrast gets outside of the Middle East.
“There is no difference between any two things, you imbecile, you simple rube” is a very popular position that allows you to both appear smarter than everyone and also never change your mental state on anything
All of the ones in this cartoon are still sending weapons to Israel and the UK specifically is still flying surveillance flights over Gaza and giving the info to Israel as well as arresting old ladies as Terrorist Supporters when they demonstrate against this Genocide.
This action of theirs now is 100% performative and not just has zero effective impact on the suffering of Palestinians but possibly even has negative impact if it reduces the pressure of the Public Opinion in those countries to stop Israel and thus delays actual effective and meaningful action.
Some of the nations in this, most noteably the Brits have a policy towards the Israeli Genocide which is basically the US plus an extra thick layer of hypocrisy.
Don’t confuse the difference in façades for a difference in intention.
I don’t disagree that there is a difference, but setting the bar at “isn’t actively saying, with public, official statements, that they support the extermination of the native population of Palestine” is just too low a bar for me. As I’ve said in another comment here, from my perspective, this is nothing but a bunch of bullies who’ve been kicking some kid, and now that one of the bullies has clearly done permanent damage, they’re all saying “hey bro, it’s just a joke, bro, are you okay, bro?” Not even trying to stop the other two bullies who are still actively curb-stomping the kid.
As the comic implies, it just seems like a publicity stunt, because doing this now doesn’t appear to have any actual value any longer, because I don’t see how recognising a government-in-exile is going to meaningfully help any part of the plight of the Palestinian people. This just seems like a pragmatic thing that they think will drum up public support, while not requiring them to actually do anything, because they know that any actual enforcement of international law against the war criminals would require the US’ cooperation, so they’re “safe” to make these too-little-too-late declarations of “support”.
Americans can shove their opinions after they let Nazis who openly declared they’d flatten Gaza to take power.
Power? No no no, they wanna build a hotel…or Vegas? Sin! they wanna build a monument to sin…on corpses
Edit: typo…fat fingers
Not like they didn’t build a whole country on it.
I really don’t see the point this is trying to make. Like, would it be better if they didn’t recognize it at all?
Imagine if someone punched you over and over again in the face and said, “Sorry, I’ll stop.” You’d be happy that they’d stopped, but you wouldn’t like them or forget, especially because their friend is still currently punching you in the face.
This, except their friend is actually shooting your starving children, then bombing the hospital they’re being kept in.
Y’know what would be the best way to get rid of Hamas?
Provide aid and policing. Help establish long-term stability. Prove that you’re on the same side as the people. Treat them as humans and not cannon fodder, unaffected casualties, or shields.
Basically, the opposite of what Israel is doing.
This is what boggles my mind when the right attacks anyone who is Pro-Palestine. Almost none are in favor of Hamas - they just recognize that most Palestinians are innocent people who just want to live in peace. We don’t have to kill hundreds of thousands of Palestinians or create a massive diaspora.
The war feels a lot as if Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were on opposing sides. Yeah, I’d want Mussolini to win, but why did it have to be him?
Hamas needs to be eliminated in order for long term peace to be established but we all know Israel isn’t going to stop there.
But between stopping or not I’d definitely prefer stopping
It is RATHER FUCKING LATE. Sure, let’s put together anti-poaching laws for the White Rhino after it’s already extinct in the wild! Now, let’s find other ways to do precisely nothing of any meaningful value while being able to claim moral superiority and that “at least we eventually did something”. Now that the complete obliteration of any meaningful civilisation in the vast majority of occupied Palestine has been completed, and after god-knows-how-many thousands have died of starvation or just being shot like rabid dogs while trying to take the mangled bodies of their children to a hospital, or daring to try to pick up food. Recognising a state which is in exile is precisely as useful to actual Palestinian people as just watching and shrugging your shoulders. It’s just an attempt at performative retroactive unfucking.
We all know it’s fucking late, but it makes little sense to complain when someone is finally doing the right thing.
Better late than never.What complaining? It’s a political cartoon. It’s not saying they shouldn’t have done something late. It’s just a reminder that they didn’t do anything earlier.
In case my point was unclear, this is no longer “them doing the right thing”. What, precisely, do you believe is the benefit of this action to the Palestinian people? This is a great way of drumming up public support without actually having to do anything. Is there actually any commitment here to action? Is there actually any real cost to doing this? Have these countries ceased funding Israel? Have they stepped up aid? Are they even acknowledging that it is a genocide?
Perhaps I am wrong, but I don’t think I am. This is nothing but a publicity stunt, and until it’s backed up by real action, I refuse to perceive this as “doing the right thing”. This is nothing but a bunch of bullies who’ve been kicking some kid, and now that one of the bullies has clearly done permanent damage, they’re all saying “hey bro, it’s just a joke, bro, are you okay, bro?” Not even stopping the other two bullies who are still actively curb-stomping the kid. No. I don’t see this as “the right thing”.
You are making an argument from ignorance.
First of all, this is something Palestine has wanted for many decades. So finally doing it is absolutely something the Palestinians want.What, precisely, do you believe is the benefit of this action to the Palestinian people
It marks that the occupation of Palestine by Israel is illegal, making new settlements are illegal.
In short it basically defines almost everything Israel does as illegal and unacceptable by every nation that recognize a Palestinian state.This is a clear message to Israel that they do NOT have the support of those countries, and their actions are regarded as illegal under international law.
Most likely there will be follow ups to this, that legally depended on this recognition to begin with.It is also i signal to other countries, that helping Israel oppressing and committing war crimes in Palestine is not acceptable under international law.
Don’t let perfect stand in the way of progress.
As someone who is under the godforsaken Nazi regime of MAGA, I have rapidly come to terms with the fact that “illegal” things are only illegal if there is a force willing to enforce the law being broken. Is there such a force? I have heard nothing of it. Please suggest who, exactly, you think is going to actually enforce sanction and punishments for this “illegality”. If these declarations do, indeed, have the force of international law behind them, and represent a commitment by these countries to enforce these wondrous and miraculous laws they’ve been actively ignoring up until this point, then I shall immediately cede the point.
As far as “argument from ignorance” is concerned, I would appreciate some elaboration. Saying “Talk is cheap” is not an argument from ignorance.
You are actually doing it again. The argument from ignorance is that just because you don’t see (are ignorant about) the advantage of this, you claim there is no advantage, when in fact there are clear advantages.
With regard to enforcement that is usually a mix of individual countries and the international community, possibly decided in FN, much like we’ve seen with Iran.
You are living in a lawless country, and USA is not an ally in this regard anymore, but many other countries are actually trying to maintain and uphold international law.
Trump might even get in on it it too, if he thinks it helps his image.Personally I consider USA a lost cause now, and I have little interest in their policies that mostly consist of shooting themselves in the foot, and let China become the de facto international leader, as USA is stepping down and even sabotaging their former allies on their way down.
I understand why you are pessimistic, I would be too if I lived in USA.
I am not saying “there can be no advantage”. At every turn, I was asking you to explain the advantage which, let’s be clear, you have been attempting to do in good faith. I just want to understand more about whether this international law is actually enforceable in any meaningful time frame. Saying “I don’t see how this helps them in any meaningful way. Do you have some explanation that shows that it does?” is not an argument from ignorance, it is literally asking to be proven wrong. I am desperately trying to see literally anything other than a calculated move of realpolitik with the sole aim of getting their citizens to stop speaking out against their complicity in genocide.
Thaaaaat’s the negative reinforcement that’ll ensure they never change their stance next time.
That is the goal, right?
You’re so right, because the “positive reinforcement” of “let’s make up for doing nothing about the Holocaust by letting Zionists do a bit of colonialist mass murder as a treat and recognising their state” has gone just so well these last eighty years. </s>
If recognising a government in exile is the best you can do in the face of an active genocide that YOU HELPED FUND, then NO, better to do nothing and JUST. STOP. DOING. THE. GENOCIDE.
It’s saying that recognizing Palestine is how you begin to wash the blood off.
I’m pretty sure its saying they’re only recognizing Palesestine to make themselves look better.
The blood is coming off in the stream of water. Their hands are getting cleaner.
That’s because you are oversimplifying things. Yes, late is bad. Yes, better late than never. Yes, views have changed over time. Yes,many politicians are cynical fuckfaces. All of that is all true. The artist is not choosing just one thing, and neither should you.
That recognition does not remove culpability from past choices.
Yep and it still is the right step in the right direction. You didn’t expect someone to come in Hollywood Style and solve everything before bed time, did you?
You’ve got to admit, it would have certainly made for a refreshing change.
You can see the water underneath their hands is red as if blood is being washed off. To me that indicates the message of the cartoon is this is how you start to clean your hands. Note they still aren’t clean, but it’s a start
They’ve recognised it and that’s it. No behaviour has changed as far as I know. I’m pretty sure we (Canada) are still selling weapons to Israel. What does it matter if we officially recognise Palestine as a country if we are still sending weapons to destroy it?
Yes, that seems to be the point. Remember last year when the Palestine “supporters” were constantly spamming that the best way to end the genocide would be to let Trump be elected? A lot of the people who’ve latched onto the Palestinian cause don’t actually want to help anyone, they just want an excuse to hurt even more people.
Tha is a pretty shallow take. Every government for the last decades has supported the subjugation of the Palestinians. While the Democrats are not as open about their complicity and might even have shown some minor support at this point in the genocide i very much doubt that the U.S. would agree under any government to steps like sanctions.
Blaming the election on Palestine supporters is a really american centric view of the whole conflict but that is to be expected from americans.
Maybe stop blaming and instead take ANY action you can against the fascist apartheid regime that is Israel.
I think this is at least a good step 1, albeit insanely late, but it needs to be followed with sustained action and reparations. If they use this as a marketing tool like the pessimist in me is expecting, then it’s meaningless bullshit. No amount of recognition will wash the blood off of their hands.
Nothing will wash the blood off. The goal is to not get more on to them.
We need sanctions against Israel like yesterday. Their fascist government won’t budge until there is real financial pressure.
You’re making the positive assumption that the intentions behind thisare to start improving the situation of the Palestinians.
Another just a likely (maybe even more likely, given that all these countries still send weapons to Israel) possibility is that this is the lowest impact thing that they could do that woulf lessen the massive pressure of the Public Opinion in those countries to Stop Israel, thus delaying them having to enact effective measures. In other words, it’s a delaying action so that Israel can exterminate more of the Palestinian population and steal more of their land before they actually have to stop.
Doing something pretty much purely performative to delay effective actions to stop Israel is actually a bad thing rather than a good thing.
They figure the job’s close enough to done that they can flip to the “right side of history” without affecting the outcome
Clearly, it would be better if they didn’t do anything, right?
I get that this seems positive, and it could be, unless the thing they’re doing is purely performative, actively distracting from any steps they are still taking to support the genocide, since this is nothing but words. There are many explanations already here about how there is no actual meaningful action here, and that at this juncture, this move is, at best, a net neutral with no meaningful effect on the genocide and, at worst, a net negative, serving only to distract and pacify welling criticism of these governments for their complicity in the continuing genocide while the band plays on.
Would people prefer no recognition?
They would prefer those recognized that Israel is committing genocide.
Right but between recognizing Palestine or not recognizing Palestine, wouldn’t recognizing it be better?
If it stops the genocide, sure. If it distracts everyone from the fact that they’re still supporting a nation doing genocide then nah.
What do you feel it does?
It’s been one day. So far it’s done nothing. I’m gonna give it maybe a month, but if these countries’ aid to Israel doesn’t stop by then, I’ll know it was an empty gesture. I’m not going to consider this a job well done unless they give me reason to. I’m not really in the habit of giving nations the benefit of the doubt.
I was more wondering why people don’t consider this better than nothing. Imo this is at worst an empty gesture.
From my first comment:
If it distracts everyone from the fact that they’re still supporting a nation doing genocide then nah.
If it’s a distraction or an attempt to placate people and get them to stop caring about genocide in Palestine, it’s worse than an empty gesture.
I want to believe it’s better than nothing, but I won’t let myself do that until these countries prove themselves.
They would prefer an end to the genocide. Telling someone “they exist” doesn’t stop their execution.
So do you mean by that that no preference on whether Palestine is recognized?
They are mutually exclusive. If someone is telling you to stop someone stabbing them, if you’re response is to finish their passport application that doesn’t solve much
Exactly it has to start somewhere, better than no action at all
The issue is that its the absolute minimum they could do, while still selling them weapons and running recon. I mean, its not that hard. We all know what genocide looks like. We have parades every year for the men and women who fought against those who would and did do genocide on others. But for reason we are sitting and watching it happen again, and again, and being like “nah, it’ll be fine.”. But 25000 dead kids later, and its not fine. Its pretty fucking far from fine.
And all of this for what? So some utter cunt in Israel and his nazi cronies can hold on to power? We are supposed to be better than that. We might not be perfect, we might have our own issues that need serious work. But propping up a fucking nazi regime, while actively does genocide in full view of the world?
Absolute zero balls on any world leaders today. There all absolute pussies, who cant even say the simple truth we all know. Disgusting.
I think people are glossing over the underlying act of defiance that this recognition also implies. These countries are also saying ‘we are starting to break the lockstep with the US’ and that is just as significant.
Let’s recognize Mare Imbrium next, looks about the same now.
Why is France written in Comic Sans?
Because OOP intended these to be sets of 2 hands therefore 1 country per two. OP added France.
In the original comic the “France” arm wasn’t labeled.
It’s been clearly photoshopped. There was something else instead of France. You should really respect the original author’s work
It was edited, but nothing removed. In the original comic the “France” arm wasn’t labeled.
Some people will complain they’re catching flak for doing the right thing. That’s why nobody does it etc.
But that’s the point. If you’re really honest with yourself you take your licks and own up for what you did wrong. People are gonna give you a hard time for it.
The alternative is not doing it.
Seems like whether anyone does it or not, its all wrong.
It’s setting the stage. It doesn’t do much on it’s own but if you recognize them as a state rather than just some people it gives leverage to use more diplomatic tools.
How much difference will it actually make? No idea.
link to the original comic? OP clearly, badly, photoshop’d this one and it’s clear OP is from the country they replaced with France.
The France hand looks like the counter part to Australia, the others also have two hand per country. So nothing was replaced, just added
In the original comic the “France” arm wasn’t labeled.
Better than refusing to recognize Palestine.
Not in the eyes of a lot of people on Lemmy.
You’re letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Should they take no positive steps?
Imagine someone robs your house, causes untold damage, takes all your valuables and shoots your wife, your child, and your dog.
The robbers voluntarily give back the clock you had on the mantelpiece and $20, claiming they feel bad. You get nothing else but those things. The clock is blood-spattered and cracked. But hey, that $20 counts for something, right?
Would you rather they kept it?
This is frankly baffling. Nobody is saying this should be the only thing to be done. Just that it’s a good thing. Is it not a good thing?
If everything from my house was stolen but I was given a tiny useless token back, no, no that isn’t better than getting nothing at all.
I’m not saying it’s not a good thing, I’m implying how much of a good thing it is.
Would you rather not get anything because it’s not good enough?? you’re literally letting perfect be in the way of good
If it avoids them suffering consequences for the original theft, thus leading them to the same con again and again and again because they always win from it, it’s actually a bad thing.
That’s an additional caveat that isn’t included either with the analogy itself or with the actual recognition of Palestine.
The evaluation of the merits of something doesn’t stop at its obvious direct effects.
I mean, if that was the case, me pissing on the punch bowl in a party would be a good thing because it had the immediate, direct and positive effect of me not feeling the need to piss anymore.
I know that its one of most common political swindles in our era to totally and utterly ignore secondary effects and broader impact of a political choice in order to sell us something which all things considered is a bad thing as being a good thing because at the surface it looks positive, but let’s not accept them treating most people as having the intellectual capability of 5-year-olds as a good and normal thing which everybody should do and which we should adapt to by not considering more things about a choice than we did at the age of 5.
The problem here is that the discussion was about whether X was a good thing, and then after a bunch of argument against it finally someone pops in with “because it leads to thing Y!”
- That wasn’t addressed at all until now.
- It remains an unsupported connection.
- Even if true, thing X is still in itself a good thing.
Recognizing the existence of the state of Palestine is a good thing for everyone except the racist Zionists who want an ethnically pure unified Israel in its place. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here.
In a magical special Universe where nothing else at all was happenning, recognizing the existence of the state of Palestine is always a good thing.
In the actual world were are in, with what’s going on right now, for some countries (were there is a large public pressure to actually stop Israel and which are still activelly arming Israel) politicians recognizing the existence of the state of Palestine is possibly a bad thing because of how it interacts with other things to de facto yield worse outcomes for Palestinians than if they had not done it.
Interpreting the merits of a choice in a context were there is nothing else whatsoever that interacts with it - call it “laboratory conditions” - is pure Philosophy and akin to claim that “we all live in a perfect simulation but are not aware of it”: a fun mental game that has no actual effect in Reality as we perceive it.
