TLDR If you care about the Palestinians then vote for Harris because her being president is useful for reaching a ceasefire.
The other post about this topic got locked as I was typing a reply. I feel like my comment is relevant to this discussion so I would like to leave it here. I would think this reply, the original comment, and this post are tightly related and are all about the same thing.
One thing I’ve learned this election cycle is how few people have any knowledge of utilitarianism. Genocide is better than genocide+1. Not acting is a moral choice, and frequently a cowardly one.
There is utilitarianism the ethical philosophy and there is utility. Utilitarianism is still a form a moral reasoning as it subjectively elevates the maximization of happiness and well-being. And what constitutes happiness and well-being is not universal. Utility is a method of analysis used to determine how effectively a stated action advances a stated goal. Utility relies on empirical evidence, observation and math, and is goal agnostic.
For many people on Lemmy, their goals are probably roughly summarized by wanting to end Israel’s genocide, Palestinian statehood, and general prosperity for the Palestinian people. Harris has stated multiple times that she wants a ceasefire. Trump has stated he thinks Israel needs to be allowed to finish what they started. Trump has also stated he’s going to be a dictator on day one and that his followers are never going to have to vote again.
Moral reasoning that is consistent with our goals paralyzes us in this case. Voting for a candidate whose administration oversaw and contributed to a genocide of Palestinians is subjectively immoral. Voting for a candidate who is threatening to complete a genocide of Palestinians is subjectively immoral. Not voting or voting third party when the candidate threatening to complete a genocide of Palestinians is favored by the electoral college in a FPTP system is subjectively immoral. We can subjectively state one of these options to be the lesser evil, but we have no empirical way to measure evil. Thus in theory, there is no way to form a consensus with subjective moral reasoning alone.
For people whose goal is to support the Palestinian people, it is useful to elect Harris, because someone in power who wants a ceasefire is a useful step to actually getting a ceasefire. Where as Trump will allow Israel to complete it’s genocide and end our democracy. This would allow Israel to continue it’s genocide indefinitely without US citizens ever being able to influence US foreign policy again.
Everyone is prone to moral reasoning. It’s intuitive and philosophers have been doing it since ancient times. In this case, there is a consensus around wanting to help the Palestinian people. But any given moral reasoning derived from our goal doesn’t necessarily lead us to a course of action that can help them. With a clear goal in mind, utility provides a clear-cut and consistent answer in the form of voting for Harris. edit: typo
Amrikani Falesteini here,
If you þink letting Donald Trump back into office is a reasonable answer to democratic leniency on Israeli war crimes after he handed Bibi West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Golan Heights, and is right now actively encouraging Bibi to keep going in mimic of Nixon and Reagan before him, you are eiðer a knowing zionist agent, or an unwitting one, and eiðer way you need to quit bitching, sit ð fuck down, and do your share of solidarity ðis november if you want to keep using my people’s bodies as your set dressing for your white people savior shit.
This is more direct, but I always saw the original thought experiment as a way to explore that very concept - is inaction a “choice”? IMO, the only rational answer is Yes.
Even without the third rail, “no choice” is very clearly a choice. People just selfishly want to believe they don’t share responsibility if they just let things happen “naturally”, as of their inaction means they aren’t involved. But they are. We all are. Pretending otherwise is foolish.
Ð original was actually intended as a joke to mock ð schools of þought represented by boþ options presented.
Basically saying ðat boþ lead to horrifying outcomes when unchecked by oðer ways of þinking.
Yeah, that’s why there’s all the variations of pushing an extremely large person in front of the train to stop it, and things like that. The lever, obviously it’s a choice that you should make. The person, it’s still a choice, but at what point is it not an issue you should try to handle.
Voting is a lever. There’s other actions that are more akin to pushing someone onto the tracks.
Those of us who don’t vote know this. We’re counting on it.
The machine is going to keep on killing people overseas and persecuting minorities. But the system is based on consent. If Harris wins she will claim that the voters have endorsed her and all her policies, even if we held our nose and voted for in spite of those policies. Same with Trump, who tried to take away his supporters’ healthcare and was surprised that there was a backlash since his campaign was claiming the people had spoken and he had a mandate.
A big enough group of third party and non voters shows the flaw of these parties. If they want me to support them, then work with me, pander to me dammit. Expecting my vote when you promise absolutely nothing for my community is a common Democratic trait; look at how little some Democratic politicians did for the black community and their retort was “where else are you gonna go?” They’re doing it again for black Americans and Muslim Americans. Harris won’t even be seen with those voters but she found time to hug Liz Cheney and invite her into the big tent. Harris says Black Lives Matter, she says Trans lives matter, she says Israeli lives matter, she won’t say that Arab lives matter equal to Israeli ones. Why shouldn’t I vote for Stein, who DOES say this? Harris made a choice to back every one of Biden’s failed policies and made a calculated decision that she can win the election without me. Hillary thought the same, and hoped that by throwing Muslim-Americans under the bus she could maybe get a few republicans to change to her side. It failed, and it will fail again.
Edit: ah yes, downvote me all you want but I’ve been speaking to voters in swing states and you’re only lying to yourself if you can’t address this issue for them. Harris can’t even bring herself to say the most basic talking points in support of Palestinian rights. Just say you plan to make a committee to look into how to build a future Palestinian state or that looking back it was wrong for Biden to deny the Palestinian death count, and that would address a lot of concerns, but it’s like she’s intentionally making it harder for Arabs and Muslims to vote for her.
No politician is going to bend their policies for the population that doesn’t vote.
For so long, boomers had the majority of sawy with politicians because they had the highest percentage of voter participation.
But we DO vote. American Muslims actually have been a reliable Democratic voting bloc since 2004 and since we are a more educated and more wealthy community than the average American we also have been reliable democratic donors. Why the party under Biden has gone out of its way to avoid us is just horrifying.
Probably because ð actual reason you broke rank is because you want to exclude queer folks.
You þink we don’t see your guy endorsing Trump is ð same one who went around his city taking down rainbow flags and cancelling pride marches?
Ð ummah always saw Palestine as a pawn to anchor ðeir antisemitism wið, and now ðey’re using us again to anchor ðeir queer-phobia.
“Look what you made me do!” language, only ð gun is pointed at your own head because you’re a maþ illiterate moron wið as much literacy in self preservation.
“Give me what I want or I’ll make you watch while I let ðis mountain lion maul me and eat me!”
Add disabled people to this list, homeless people, just so many of us who would suffer under a facist.
Pretty sure the homeless one should be on both ends of the track
I’d actually say not really, democratic proposals for urbanism would significantly help ð unhoused even on ð more NIMBY end of ð spectrum.
In a sense very true.
However Trump’s proposals would make being homeless even worse, while Harris’s would make it somewhat better (although way less than is needed).
So I still stand by my categorisation.
Nuance is unacceptable. There is only utopia and hell.
Some people really think like that ahaha.
“Both parties are the same”…
Tell that to the people who’se families would get deported, to the women who lose reproductive rights, to the Ukrainians relying on our support to fight off an imperial aggressor, to the poor elderly and disabled people on social security…
If both parties are the same to you, you’re likely in a position of privilege.
homeless people need a flag
Pretty sure they need houses
But for comical effect I found this https://www.walmart.com/ip/Homelessness-Awareness-Month-USA-Flag-T-Shirt/5628172427
Walmart selling that is just rich
In the early days of the IWW, many of the Wobblies were hobos. So maybe you could say that the IWW cat is a homeless icon.
My favorite one is missing! Political Dissidents AND party members deemed a nuisance!
It’s one national government, Micheal! What could it cost to derail, 10 lives?
“Elon Musk isn’t just some no good immigrant, he’s my no good immigrant”
There’s always rubles in the borscht stand.
Edit: I don’t give a shit how many down votes I get. I’m correct! Vote blue! And show Palestinian, Arab, and all marginalized demographics you/we are not going to abandon them for self preservation. Show more empathy via doing everything within your capacity to help those around you. There are marginalized people around you. Do more. Be better. We all will be put in the tracks as the individual and we all hope others won’t boil down your life to a binary train track meme.
I’m going to be 100% with yall that comment and post this shit.
Before I go on, let me say I voted dem and know they would be better for the world over Trump.
But is that’s the standard and argument you expect people to vote for, you are in for a rude awakening… To anyone reading this or agreeing with these outright insulting comments and posts about how you know better need to take a long look in the mirror. Because…
If the only support you are giving to the Palestinian and Arab people is voting Dem and having arguments about lesser evils, then you are not helping the situation.
Yes vote dem. But get off your ass and protest, donate, and support those communities currently harmed be democrats disastrous Gaza and Middle East policy. That’s how you sway hearts and minds. These fucking backhanded, self serving, ignorant posts and comments won’t stop anything but prove to those communities that the democrats base does not give a shit about anything that doesn’t directly effect themselves.
Yall are missing the forest from the trees. Not voting for the light genicidal party nor the full genicidal party isn’t some gotcha win for Trump. It’s a failure on our part to demand our party doesn’t continue using our votes to do harm.
call your senators daily and demand they publicly denounce Israel and the IDF. Donate money to organizations that are saving lives destroyed by our bombs. March with your fellow Palestinian and Arab brothers and sisters. Divest and boycott any business with ties to Isreal and the IDF.
We should be on the tracks trying to destroy them not worrying about who we are sending the train towards. We’re better than this. This is just conservative tactics used on a population that we need to vote blue! We are better than this! show some empathy and get involved. I have Palestinian friends and they would spit in your face if you said this kind of shit to their face because it’s removing the humanity of the 40k people killed by Isreal via bombs provided by Biden/Harris. If you/we don’t care why should they?
I’m voting Democrat to preserve some semblance of democracy in this country, but I have to say I’m quite disappointed in my congress critters. My senator in particular. I’ve emailed her frequently, including links to articles detailing the crimes against humanity committed by the IDF, and all I get is a form letter response about how “Israel’s right to defend itself is so important” and “October 7th was terrible” and maybe a line about how horrible it is that Palestinians are suffering written in a way that either only blames Hamas or uses the most passive voice I have ever seen in writing.
Sen. Tammy Baldwin?
Nah. Amy Klobuchar. I’m a Minnesotan.
Damn, that makes two of 'em, then.
Almost all of them. It’s nauseating.
Exactly. And that does not mean our job is done. Please keep writing and advocating. If more people do this we can save lives. Not only if those that we can see. It’s about fighting for the best of humanity opposed to the race to the bottom. Vote blue, get involved, fuck the IDF, divest and boycott.
When I have more time during my winter break, I’m going to mail a handwritten letter with some articles printed out, and follow up with a phone call. I’ll read the damn article to her if I have to.
If the only support you are giving to the Palestinian and Arab people is voting Dem and having arguments about lesser evils, then you are not helping the situation.
Jesus fucking Christ man, is it really so ridiculous to believe that a week before the election the current concern is voting Dem considering that is the upcoming issue with a hard and irreversible cutoff?
Many of us are involved in politics outside of voting. I write my congresscritters regularly, usually on matters of foreign affairs, for all the good it does. I donate when I can.
But right now a considerable number of people are banging the “DON’T VOTE BOTH SIDES THE SAME” drum when there is a very good chance of a literal fucking fascist being elected, the issue of “These votes are NOT fucking equivalent” is pretty fucking important to bring attention to, and bringing it to attention with asspats and “I understand if you don’t want to stop any further genocides happening, but…” is the kind of feckless, useless civility politics bullshite I’m constantly criticizing the Dems for, so you can be sure as shit I’m not cutting anyone else slack for that approach.
Ya exactly. Where the fuck have yall been? I’m not trying to be pedantic or insulting but we that actually cares have been fighting for a long time to actually help! And yes they’re are things outside of our control but we should never fucking stop trying to stop the train. You (those that haven’t done anything to in your personal life to oppose fucking genicide outside of commenting and posting) are the reason why Palestinian and Arab Americans will stay home on election day. We need their vote! So get involved! Regardless of how the election ends we need to come together as a unified community and not individuals that act as if the Palestinians are already dead regardless of our collective actions! I’m guessing there are enough more marginalized demographics between you (not you specifically) and the next set of binary track decisions. If they (the rich and powerful) can do it to the Palestinian people they’ll do it to you. And when they do come for you I pray others don’t wait until a week before elections when they start posting train track memes as that’s a point that should be made.
Get involved. Show communities that are currently on the chopping block you’ll never stop trying to save their lives regardless as how close the train is. Get involved! Voting is the absolute least you can do, but you can do more! This post and comment won’t sway a fucking election but us unifying and help those in need as much as possible will!
I’m done. Yall be acting like I’m the one being crazy when I’m saying no one has to be on the tracks of more keyboard warriors actually did something for others. Get involved!
END
call your senators daily and demand they publicly denounce Israel and the IDF
Honestly, do YOU do that? Daily?
What has been your success rate in getting your senator on the line?
You must be on a first name basis by now.Maybe they haven’t and are just pointing it out. Few do, and that’s the problem. It’s not democracy, it’s representative democracy, but it only works like a democracy would if people hold their reps accountable.
So no, the ones suggesting to hold their reps to the fire, now and after the election, probably haven’t themselves. But they aren’t wrong, and it shouldn’t be thrown back in their face but instead embraced as a good idea to start now.
Otherwise nothing changes, because other factors already contact our reps daily and influence them, that’s why they vote the way they do.
A problem is that even if you do, you’re just talking to some part-time intern they hired to not have to listen to you.
For a single voter call, that’s true. That’s why it needs to be in mass numbers, and constant. Make them concerned that if they don’t show some change, people will start showing up physically. With pitchforks.
And if they don’t still, then go get some pitchforks.
Uhhhhhh what? Are you being purposely dumb? Of course when I say call your senators, I’m not saying get them on the actual fucking line! Call his office/voice mail and make the comment… And don’t just comment one thing comment about all the communities currently being tied up on the tracks. And if you don’t want to do that have you donated to charities helping in marginalized communities local or abroad? How about volunteering? How about protesting? Whatever is in your capacity you should be doing it!
Of course when I say A I mean B
Getting real tired of this Trump-supporter-like line of reasoning
If you’ve always thought people ment literally call your senators personal lines when they say, “call your senators” you probably are a moron. It’s that better? No one ever has ment it in the literal sense.
Agreed but the chance those tracks will be destroyed before the election is slim.
I applaud your call to activism but in reality much less people will ever commit to fighting for their ideals that way.
Many more people will however are willing to give a token to a “right cause”
Voting D is that token. It doesn’t fix shit, especially considering the genocide but it will be a slower decline of human rights then the alternative.
More time to do activism.
There are many others, also on lemmy that are not calling for activism but for a token of not voting. I think the meme is a representation of that particular logic.
Everything you said is correct. I just don’t want to see all the surprised Pikachu when their inaction and self-righteousness results in a Trump victory. They’ll cry, “why didn’t the Palestinian and Arab Americans show up for the democrats?!”
The train hasn’t hit yet there are still millions of lives we can save by doing more than just voting. If we’re not willing to do everything to save them, why should they do anything to save us? I don’t care how close the train is. I’ll be trying to destroy the tracks until it hits me and the persons tied to the tracks. That’s my point.
These memes boil an unbelievably complex issue to a binary outcome. Marginalized communities are going to be there regardless of the outcome of the elections. Don’t wait until the train is about to hit you or something you care about before you decide to start dismantling the tracks. Then see how you feel when someone presumes your inevitable cleansing. I honestly feel like I’m living in Bizarro world or something. Like is what I’m saying beyond our capacity? We are doomed if we won’t all step on the tracks to stop the trains.
Voting D is that token. It doesn’t fix shit, especially considering the genocide but it will be a slower decline of human rights then the alternative.
by any logic it accelerates the decline. it gives a clear signal that they can get away with anything as long as they can project a worse alternative.
by any logic it accelerates the decline.
“Enabling mediocrity of non-fascists is a faster decline into fascism than literally electing a fascist”
Even by your own assertions on the matter of what electing Dems does, this is absurd.
What do you mean by “project”? Trump is objectively worse.
that doesn’t matter to them. it would have been bernie running against harris and they will be still still saying vote harris else sanders will destroy the economy. remember 2016 ?
There is not enough time for a revolution before the election.
Reality is people will have to make a choice D/R or neither. No matter how they chose there will be either a D or R in political power.
If you have a proposition that will actually guarantee a different outcome i am willing to listen…
My personal take is to wait till the second this power game is over and hard dictatorship is avoide. start then. At the very least you will have many more people willing to join. Currently your just hurting the credibility of your own cause.
We have the same admin and reps until January, so even before the election people can start doing what they should have been doing all along and participate in more than just a vote. I’ll say it again, this genocide didn’t start a few weeks ago (when the “don’t vote for genocide” meme started), it didn’t start last October, it didn’t begin on any other major event that got the media attention for a while, it’s been decades, almost a century, of illegality and oppression and killing.
Also a reminder, if you’re of one party or another and a different party gets into the seat, they are still your representative. You do not have to wait to get a matching letter to call them and praise or bitch about what they are doing.
what credibility anything will have when harris says that america has voted for her with the policy to continue arming israel to any extent ? a policy she has repeated multiple times during her campaign without leaving any ambiguity.
what’s stopping her from saying this is the will of the american people and start locking up any protest in name of antisemitism ?
and its not just israel, her policy on fracking and inflation is no better. life for working class has become hell in last four years, corporate greed is out of control and her campaign has been just “trump this trump that, vote me else you will have trump.”
If you have a proposition that will actually guarantee a different outcome i am willing to listen…
only outcome that will bring any iota of change is one in which popular vote clearly suggests we don’t want trump or harris.
THANK YOU!
Our community is suffering, and the only solution people are offering are to yell at us and shame us for not finding this situation unlivable. “Your community will keep dying in either administration but could you vote for the pro-trans politician while you’re suffering?”
Mehdi Hasan was the only person who was able to reach out and connect to those voters with his recent video, and he did so with sympathy and understanding. He convinced me to vote and did so without bullying or calling me names.
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Just nuke the planet cuz humans suck regardless
I feel at this point the majority of content on this sub is not funny or a meme anymore. While I don’t agree with Trump at this point Lemmy is becoming “astroturfed” like reddit
This is, objectively, a political meme. Humor is not requisite.
This happens every election cycle the closer election day comes. Is it really any surprise political advocacy is higher during political season?
And what makes this “astroturfed”?
“Things I disagree with are being upvoted so it must be a coordinated campaign”
American elections bring out the worst in everyone everywhere.
Third party represent.
So that’s the middle path, a useless/selfish moral high ground that will ultimately see more people dead/suffering.
People on the internet who claim to hold democracy in the highest regard and gatekeeping voting if ideology differs.
Name a more iconic duo.
Alternatively: “I’m voting for Diet Fascism and if you don’t vote for Diet Fascism too, you’re voting for Full-Fat Fascism” but said with the sternest voice the weakest losers can muster.
More “I’m voting for diet fascism and if you don’t vote you’re complicit in anything that comes, which will either be diet fascism or full-fast fascism. Not voting doesn’t prevent either of these, and one is obviously preferably. No action is still a choice you’re making.”
It should be giving the choice to a Nazi.
Libs love to imagine genocide roller coasters.
But I dunno why they expect this to inspire loyalty.
I’m not loyal to the Democrats or to America and I still vote
What else are they going to do? Change their policies to suit their voter base?
I just want a candidate that supports both universal healthcare and the 2nd amendment.
Quick, somebody get this guy on the ballot!
Considering everyone is talking about fascists coming to power and life getting more threatening, it would make some sense for the groups in the photo to look into being armed.
I’ll be honest, I’m not planning to vote. Though if I did, it would most certainly not be for the orange man.
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I don’t care to sign up for potential jury duty some random day.
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I do not care to vote for anyone with religious motivations.
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I don’t care to vote for anyone with their head stuck in other countries’ business.
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I’d much rather vote for someone that actually has our country first and foremost.
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Honestly I feel ashamed to even be born in a country that hocks weapons like candy.
I could go on, but when I feel the election is like choosing between the lesser of two evils, then I choose not to vote for either evil.
Too bad there isn’t a clear better candidate in the lead.
Not voting means you’re fine if either of the two major candidates win. Inaction is also a choice with consequences that can have decades of impact.
Last time I went to vote, it was for the 2016 election. I spent 3 hours in line, only for them to close the voting library with around 200 people ahead of me still waiting to vote. Our state does not allow early voting.
This is not legal; you have a right to vote. Call those numbers if you have an issue and don’t leave the line.
We don’t all have to be activists, but one day of the year we can spend a little extra time ensuring we remain a democracy.
That’s very strange that they closed the polls with people waiting. My understanding was you had a right to vote if you were in line.
Because it’s a made up story bro.
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I hope at least someone is paying you to lie lol
You know what? You and everyone accuaing me of lying about this can go to hell, I am telling the truth. Shit, if this is the attitude of the typical voter, all the more reason I don’t care to vote, I don’t care to stand in line with douchebags that’ll just as soon call people liars instead of accepting that I’m telling the truth and admit that it was pretty fucked up.
I have nothing more to say about it, Mississippi is about a back-asswards state anyways.
8pm is 8pm, no exceptions.
Sad that I (and a few friends) got there and stood in line from around 5pm on, only to still be like 200 people back in line when they closed.
Cool story, too bad it’s inaccurate. In every state in the USA, if you are waiting in line when polls close you have the right to remain in line and cast your vote, regardless of how long it takes.
If you were told to go home because the polls were closed and they weren’t accepting further voters, then you were lied to.
Tell that to the ~200 people that didn’t get to vote that evening. Hell, everyone was standing in the rain waiting in line to vote when they closed, and everyone waiting outside was like what the fuck?!
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What about your local stuff? You can vote and just not pick a President choice. Although #1 still applies, I guess.
How do you even manage to vote in a state that doesn’t allow early voting? Last time I tried to vote, I spent around 3 hours in line, only for them to close with about 200 people ahead of me still waiting to vote.
Wow, won’t even allow voting for those in line? You don’t even have to tell me which party controls that state. Bet there’s no mail-in or absentee ballot availability either, or very strict rules to limit it.
I’ve been watching early voting numbers in my county, they even have a “current wait” tracker online, and it’s been regular 30 mins to even a few hours wait each day. Now imagine the same number of people all in one day. It’s madness to force that on people.
My only solution to you is try to use midterm voting for the local stuff. Or bend the rules and claim you’ll be out of state and need an absentee ballot. I think they legally can’t prevent that, even thought they’d love to.
Mississippi. Doesn’t even register on the early voting states list…
https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/early-in-person-voting
My condolences. I don’t take red states as a “us or them” but more of a failing of the country to prevent any place to fall to that level.
I’m not exactly impressed with this state either ☹️
Easy solution; move out of Mississippi. I did it and never looked back
Not having Jury Duty is like, the least important thing when it comes to voting. Usually they pay you for your time, and hell, sometimes you show up and they either strike you from the pool or don’t have cases left for the day, and send you home soon after you arrive. I had jury duty earlier this year, got taken out of the jury pool, and I still got paid for my time.
Any of you don’t want to be on jury duty just saying you don’t wish to do it can be enough to be removed fron the jury pool (alternatively seeming way too interested could also be a tactic)
He said he was voting in 2016, so he is in jury duty list already and this argument is pointless.
They must have updated the system in my area. On Thursday, I got an email telling me I didn’t have to show up for jury duty that was supposed to start Monday.
Where I’m at you have to call a number every evening to see if you need to show up in the morning.
Yeah, that’s what I was expecting, too. I’ve had to do that before.
They pay you. Not very much though. If you’re living paycheck to paycheck it’s a financial hit.
Ah the bridge option. Nice job “not choosing”
Last time I went to vote, it was for the 2016 election. And you better bet your ass I wasn’t gonna vote for the orange man then either.
I spent 3 hours in line, only for them to close the voting library with around 200 people ahead of me still waiting to vote. Biggest waste of my time ever.
And no, our state does not allow early voting.
It’s reprehensible that they closed the polling place.
But three hours is a small, tiny price to pay to participate in democracy and potentially help tons of minorites and at risk folks avoid another trump term.
With around 200 people ahead of me? It would have taken way more than 3 hours to even have a chance to get in the door.
I acknowledged the issue with them closing the polls. But if you had gotten in, the time would not have been a waste. You dont know you won’t get in this time.
I’m a live-in caretaker for an elderly man that has an out of state doctor’s appointment on the 5th, I won’t even be in the state that day.
My hands are tied any which way you look at it.
You couldn’t apply for an absentee ballot? Even in Mississippi you have an ironclad reason that you cannot be present on election day.
That’s completely different than the situation discussed above.ajd totally understandable.
Mississippi. Doesn’t even register on their list.
Oof, that’s too bad.
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In one image, show us you don’t understand the philosophical problem.
When people are insisting that “Doing nothing is choosing NEITHER track!”, sometimes a less subtle approach is needed.
Meh. Voting dems is doing effectively nothing. People have been voting for them for decades and you still ended up supporting genocide and one step away from fascism. Do literally anything else instead which is not begging politicians or rich people in one way or another.
People have been voting for the GOP for decades too you goofball
Why are computer bros so socially illiterate for God’s sake
This is privilege. It is plain what another trump term will mean for many minorities and at risk folks, including Muslims. Suggesting voting Dem is “effectively nothing” is privilege when the comparison is widely known.
It’s privilege to think that the minorities being exterminated right now are an acceptable loss.
Meh. Voting dems is doing effectively nothing. People have been voting for them for decades and you still ended up supporting genocide and one step away from fascism.
Oh, okay, so let’s just let that last step happen. It’s effectively nothing, right?
Do literally anything else instead which is not begging politicians or rich people in one way or another.
You do realize that ‘anything else instead’ will be harder under a fascist regime, right?
Even if you think this is nothing but buying time, buy it. Hastening the arrival of fascism isn’t exactly good praxis.
Oh, okay, so let’s just let that last step happen. It’s effectively nothing, right?
You just voting is not preventing the last step happen is my point.
You do realize that ‘anything else instead’ will be harder under a fascist regime, right?
If people put all the effort you put into thinking and talking about voting to doing direct action, it will probably be better. But most voters will go “oh well, we tried” and let fascists do fascist things which is the exact things that has been happening for the past 50 years, which is why you’re at the point of voting for a fascist & genocide or just voting for genocide.
Even if you think this is nothing but buying time, buy it. Hastening the arrival of fascism isn’t exactly good praxis.
Just Buying time is only effective is you actually do something with the time you buy. Do I need to mention you’ve been “buying time” since Reagan and yet you’re still at fascism and genocide? I’m not saying to hasten fascism. I said put all the effort you put into voting into doing direct action, which is the only thing actually stopping fascism. The figurehead above doesn’t matter.
You just voting is not preventing the last step happen is my point.
It quite literally is, unless you think there’s no difference between who wins in this election, in which case I would prefer you say it and save us all the time.
Preventing something from happening in an immediate sense is still preventing it from happening, even if it doesn’t solve the long-term problems leading to it. Patching up a hole in one’s gut may not solve the autoimmune disorder that’s killing you, but it’ll prevent you from dying in a more immediate sense.
If people put all the effort you put into thinking and talking about voting to doing direct action, it will probably be better.
… all the effort we put into thinking and talking about voting?
Most people in this country don’t even bother to vote regularly. Those that do often put no more effort into their vote than a day at the polling station based on a few caught glimpses of the political realities of this country.
What level of effort is that going to translate into direct action? You’re looking at people entered into a 100-meter sprint, nearly half of whom decided to drop out before even beginning, with many of those who’ve finished are bitching about how long it was, and saying “If they put that effort into an ultramarathon, THEN we would really be getting somewhere!”
But most voters will go “oh well, we tried” and let fascists do fascist things which is the exact things that has been happening for the past 50 years, which is why you’re at the point of voting for a fascist & genocide or just voting for genocide.
Is it your opinion that we are more fascist now than we were 50 years ago, then? Or 100 years ago?
Just Buying time is only effective is you actually do something with the time you buy.
Buying time give the potential to do something with the time bought. Not buying time doesn’t magic into existence extra options; not buying time only reduces your options.
I’m not saying to hasten fascism.
Really? Because I would think that a literal fascist and his cronies being put into executive power might hasten fascism a tiny bit.
I said put all the effort you put into voting into doing direct action, which is the only thing actually stopping fascism. The figurehead above doesn’t matter.
So you do think that there’s no difference in who wins the election, and this whole conversation is pointless?
Genuinely curious, because I see you using this narrative a lot. What are you planning to do after the election to end the genocide? You seem to balk at direct action and talk a lot about voting which is fine, but voting takes 5 minutes and we watched Kamala backtrack on all of her progressive policies and muzzled Walz’ progressive nature. What are you going to do after the election?
Are US troops involved there? Because one candidate clearly says that Biden is not doing enough to help Israel.
Israel currently is led by a similar fascist with criminal record to trump, that once he loses his power he will go to jail. He is using attack on October 7 as an excuse to get rid of Palestine.
And we have seen that no one can really stop Israel. Do you think Biden wouldn’t prefer that the conflict would be over (and Israel wouldn’t be stirring new shit) and not distract from the war in Ukraine?
It’s clear that Netanyahu won’t stop what he is doing no matter what and actually wants trump to win as trump promises to help.
As mentioned, I’m not even whole enough to walk more than a few blocks, and I live self-employed and under the poverty line. All I can do is donate when I can and speak to those close to me. I write my reps, but that’s pretty in-line with representative democracy, and I get the feeling that you’re looking for non-voting action outside of the norm. I’ve notably reddened my social circle, but that’s all I can claim.
I miss being able to march. But I have neither the physical nor emotional fortitude for that anymore.
You seem to balk at direct action
I don’t balk at direct action. I decry the idea that it’s a replacement for voting. Direct action is important. Voting in certain elections is, likewise, important. Dedication to direct action does not and should not preclude taking one day out of the year, or less if you live in a state with good mail-in voting laws, for harm reduction, especially when that harm is at an exceptionally bad precipice point. Nor does voting preclude direct action.
It quite literally is, unless you think there’s no difference between who wins in this election, in which case I would prefer you say it and save us all the time.
Ultimately, there’s no difference who wins this election. You are still going inexorably to move towards fascism and genocide, as we’ve seen in all the past elections.
Preventing something from happening in an immediate sense is still preventing it from happening,
You’re not. You’re just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say “well, better than bullets at least.”
… all the effort we put into thinking and talking about voting?
If all the dedicated people doing all the voting prep work did the direct action work, it would have improved people’s lives and you would have converted them to direct action as well. but since voting doesn’t do shit, nobody gives a shit.
Is it your opinion that we are more fascist now than we were 50 years ago, then? Or 100 years ago?
More. In fact, I think you’re one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.
Buying time give the potential to do something with the time bought. Not buying time doesn’t magic into existence extra options; not buying time only reduces your options.
You won’t though, because your praxis is conditioning people to think voting is the only thing that matters, since everyone is putting so much effort all the time convincing people how important it is to vote for the next thing that’s just around the corner. You don’t buy time. You just hasten fascism by not doing direct action and by putting all your energy into talking about how important voting is and begging politicians with letters.
So you do think that there’s no difference in who wins the election, and this whole conversation is pointless?
Ultimately there’s no difference for your society no. You’ll still move towards fascism and continue the genocide.
Ultimately, there’s no difference who wins this election.
Oh, cool, I’ll remember this if Trump wins and we’re in line for the camps together. “Ha ha, this is just like it was in the good old days, under those damn Democrats, right?”
You’re not. You’re just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say “well, better than bullets at least.”
Okay. Let’s go with that analogy. With the choice of a stab wound or a .50 cal through the chest, which is preferable? Which will give you more time to deal with the problem?
More. In fact, I think you’re one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.
You think… the US… is more fascist now than it was in the 70s. Or the 50s. Or the 30s. Or the 10s.
Check, please!
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Doing nothing is implied to go down the middle here, I’m pretty sure, which results in everyone getting run over.
More realistically, Palestine would be laid down on the track before the fork, with the Trump track looping around to run over Palestine a second time.
omg, it’s like I never looked at the image - yeah, ignore my comment, jfc
Doing nothing results in taking the Moral High track, which loops around to the top track.
yeah, I’m an idiot 😭
Nah. Usually this problem has two tracks. I can see why you overlooked it.
that’s sweet of you, lol
The philosophical problem is more a game theory one. You are participating in a limited outcome, constrained system. Depending on where you live, non participation results in a trump win.
The philosophical problem assumes only one action available to you with clear results. Neither of these is true here.
More to the point. The philosophical problem is about the agony of inaction. You don’t need to bastardize the meme to add a third “inaction” route. That’s just inane.
Again that dodges the conclusion that one of the two WILL win. Understanding your district and the “cost” or teinal result of inaction still funnels all choices and interests to one of two results.
One of these winning, doesn’t mean the results are foreseen. Which is unlike the meme where the results are foreseen.
All outcomes are foreseen. The one that will occur is not. Abstaining and 3rd party voting has known impacts that lead to one or the other possible outcome.
“Foreseen” is there will be one track chosen, not what is lying on that track.
That’s untrue. We know each candidates general stance from past time in executive office. It’s easy to look up trump’s past actions and current words on the middle east, and to the meme, we know his stance on minority communities, abortion, citizen rights, etc. as well.
No love for Harris, but her platform is far saner and even ethical than trump’s.
I wasn’t trying to make the US election into a philosophical problem, because Trump winning will have serious global consequences, regardless of how immoral voting for Democrats might be.
voting or not voting for trump is going to have important global consequences given that it doesn’t matter who the figurehead is when half your country is fascist. If not Trump, then someone else. and no amount of voting democrats is going to change this.
The ‘philosophical problem’ with tankies trading people’s lives to teach a politician a lesson?
Wow what a great sense of morality you have.
db0 is referring to the fact that the trolley problem is about inaction.
The philosophical problem of the trolley problem itself, but don’t let me stop you from moralizing in advance.
The meme hasn’t been about the philosophical problem in a long time.
