“A lot of the illusions that I held dear, rugged individualism, individual freedoms, are coming back to bite us in the ass. It seems like getting rid of the gatekeepers gave us Trump as president, and in the same breath, in the same wind, gave us not wearing masks, and maybe gave us a huge unpleasant amount of overt racism.”
Hats off to a man willing to admit he made a mistake.
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We should remember that at the time there was a severe lack of masks of any kind available. So creating a masking culture and blocking as much as possible was seen as better than just rawdogging the atmosphere.
the shortage was for a few months at best, I was working as a trucker hauling grain then, wheat dust is fucking nasty, I often wore a mask for that, an N95, which I went out of my way to get in bulk. Cloth masks can’t keep grain dust out of your lungs, don’t tell me they do anything as to a virus.
don’t tell me they do anything as to a virus.
Okay. I won’t, but the NIH would like a word.
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Grain dust PPM to a person working in a grain dust rich environment ≠ covid particles in every day air, So…. I don’t know why you feel the need to make such a bad faith a comparison of the two.
Additionally, masks of ANY type are helpful as they can assist in the virus containment of the WEARER should they be the one exposed.
Lastly, seriously… How do you not understand that there are two sides to a mask and that air travels in more than one direction through them?
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That’s a common misconception of how masks work during an epidemy. The main reason to wear a mask is not to be safe from other people. It’s to not spread the virus (that may not cause any symptoms yet but be present in you) to others. That’s why doctors wear masks during surgeries - to not harm the patient. A proper mask works better and can protect you as well, but a cloth mask can limit the amount of breath you spread all around you and can be effective enough to limit the spread of the disease. So it’s not the same situation as with grain dust, where you need to protect yourself, not the others.
I tried saying the same thing. It’s clear that they aren’t here to have a reasonable discussion.
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And those were also the few months that NYC was using refrigerated semi trailers as extra morgue space because so many people were dying. And yeah they do. Some virus particles will be too small to be stopped but some will be riding larger particles and be stopped with them. Reducing the sheer amount of virus in an area is always better. Whether it’s by 10 percent or 90 percent.
It’s more the Japanese way, wear a mask to protect others.
anyone who claims to be “a libertarian” should be forced to watch the libertarian convention which YOU KNOW none of them have ever seen in their lives.
check out the ideas your “party” pushes. real big brain stuff.
there’s nothing wrong with freedom, but regulation is necessary. to say otherwise is either ignorance, stupidity, or malice.
Being wrong admitting it and changing your mind with new information is absolutely amazing and a great character trait. Props to him.
Except that he lives a life of high privilege and has spent YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS saying the rest if us were wrong and immoral. It took straight up Nazism for him to back down. If Kamala were President now he would have doubled down on his philosophy
I am a PJ fan and follower, but I am well aware that he has long been a naive idiot operating from a place of priviledge. He is well insulated from the pitfalls of the ideas he espouses, and it took an UNDENIABLE COLLAPSE into straight up Nazism for him to finally grasp it.
Luv ya Penn, but I ain’t giving you any fucking medals
“I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative” - John Stuart Mill
Penn Jilletet pulled me 100 % onto the vaccine train with his ball and shield demonstration with teller on their bull shit show. Until this day, I still haven’t seen any demonstration that was more convincing than that on any subject in the amount of time that they used.
I got to meet him in Vegas. He was really nice to a nervous nerd. Now I’m even more impressed he has the courage to change his beliefs in public.
A sign of true intelligence is the ability to change your opinions after consideration and evidence. Penn always struck me as a very intelligent man.
I used to practically idolize Penn and Teller and had all their books and STILL use their card-forces and other goofy, effective performances with friends. It made me a legend with friends and family.
I lost track in adulthood but am glad to see that Penn didn’t turn into a grifting chud like so many from the time, and practiced what he preached in using critical thought and self-examination.
Yeah, they’re really nice guys. I got to go up on stage for one of their shows and participate in a trick. We went to a lot of shows on that trip (seven, i think?), they were the only ones that stand outside the exit and greet ever person leaving that wants to meet them. They sign autographs, take pictures, etc. with hundreds of people after each show. And they stopped to talk to my friend and I for a couple minutes as we left and Penn thanked me for participating and let me keep a prop from the act as a souvenir. Great dudes.
The souvenir is a good example of the libertarian aspects of their show. It was a metal card with the bill of rights on it, with the 4th amendment (the freedom from unwarranted search and seisure) highlighted in red. The premise was you should put it in your pocket when walking through the metal detectors or scanners at TSA at the airport. When the machines go off and they question you about out it, you were meant to pull it out and snarkily go “oh sorry, that’s just my bill of rights”. It was a good for a bit of a laugh in theory, but way too obnoxious to actually do in real life. I packed it away in my carry-on instead. I still have it in a keepsake box somewhere.
There used to be a time back when libertarianism was anti-capitalist. Then right wingers stole it and turned it into a circus.
good to see teller talked some sense into him
Self awareness is such a precious thing in people but it is a prerequisite for this type of personal growth. It can be difficult but ultimately it is rewarding and fulfilling to realise there are things that you don’t like about yourself and set about correcting them.
I got turned towards Libertanianism when I lived in Germany for a while and if you ever had you’d know why. Then I lived in Asia where it’s the exact opposite and that turned me towards socialism. My point being is that there’s definitely a golden mean to freedoms and any absolutist should be immediately ignored because they are objectively wrong.
I got turned towards Libertanianism when I lived in Germany for a while and if you ever had you’d know why.
Living in Germany rn. I don’t get it? Can you please explain?
Not OP and couldn’t see myself moving towards Libertarianism, but I can kinda see where OP is coming from. Germany does have a huge amount of regulations for almost everything. A lot of projects take far too long because there are so so many rules and laws to be considered. People working in administration got so used to that, that they tend to avoid responsibilities and hide behind rules and regulations (saying this as someone working in administration, trying to establish better digital processes, which tends to be quite frustrating). On an individual level, everything (except the Autobahn without its speed limit) is always made, so even the biggest idiot can’t hurt himself. Sometimes that ruins the fun for everyone else…
I’ll take ruined fun over ruined lives.
Where do you draw the line? Because that’s what it’s about: how much risk is acceptable for efficiency, personal freedom, etc. The answer is obviously not “zero” or else we wouldn’t have room for cars, construction, stairs, public beaches, the list goes on. Most of life is inherently or potentially dangerous, how much of that danger should be blocked by the state and how much left to the individual to manage?
There is no The Line, obviously. It’s all decided on case-by-case basis, and decisions have to be made in context. The only thing you can do in advance is to answer the question “do you prefer momentary efficiency, or do you prefer safety” and then go from there.
It’s not even about monetary efficiency. Ruined fun/ruined life. You said you were on the side of “ruined fun” but how much fun are we talking about? I assume you have some kind of stance because you joined the conversation.
I started to observe a pattern recently, when people on this platform refuse to read the text of the comment they’re replying to. It leads to all kinds of bad faith arguments.
Don’t be like that. Read the text, and engage with the text, not with what you imagined someone might say to you.
ruined fun is a ruined life
It’s just Kafka-esque bureaucracy of everything. It’s almost impossible to get anything done and it’s incredibly demotivating.
Its 90% of european continent , ita burried under 10 layers of buirocracy … we even have a joke here “you’re gonna need a form ym1p (you’re missing 1 paper) on your third visit, otherwise you wont get anything done” , doesnt translate as well tho
Yes I’m generally pro regulation and government oversight but the way European countries implement this sometimes feels like a purposeful moat to protect the rich.
That’s not “leftism”, that’s just unchecked, unquestioned bureaucracy.
Not saying it is, just quite the opposite if what libertarianism is.
Gee, I can’t imagine why Germany would want to slow down government actions…
Can you give some examples? I really don’t understand what you’re talking about
Have you ever had to visit a DMV?
Maybe I’m oversimplifying but I tend to think money is the problem. Supposing all wealth were equally distributed, libertarianism makes a lot of sense to me as maximizing personal freedoms. It generally becomes a problem when people use wealth to abuse others, either by hoarding wealth and restricting the freedom of others that way, or by using inequality to purchase things that no person should be able to purchase.
Another thing to keep in mind is that libertarianism wants everyone to focus on the individual, when society itself is an organized group that looks toward the collective (ideally, anyway)
Without guardrails or penalties for being caught, people that abuse the system will hoard wealth and power until they can call the shots
Or get shot , libertairanism slides into feudal/oligarchical structure if left unchecked
These thought experiments are fun and truthful and all but I really dont see much value in this speculation tbh. In my 40something years in different cultures I’ve became a staunch believer in Golden Mean of politics. Use the right tool for the right job. Times are good - work on more fteedoms, times are harder - maybe it’s time to tighten up the belts.
But what if the hard times are caused by rich people abusing the commons? Should we just keep tightening our belts while the rich take more and more?
I agree in general, like if there’s a drought expect less food. But most of our scarcity is artificial. I believe there are solutions to the challenge of surviving.
No the golden mean also applies to your example too. If rich get too toxic it’s time to bring out guillotines
Oh interesting, that’s not what it sounded like. Is that your personal view, or a tenet of the Golden Mean? Is there a particular thinker that you cleave to more than the others?
The Wikipedia page is pretty nebulous on this, other than allowing for a limited aristocracy (and monarchy?? Lol no thanks on that).
I’m not sure how you’d decide exactly how limited this aristocracy is without importing from other philosophies and value systems.
Golden Mean is a philosophy of Aristotel who said that all things have a golden mean (or balance) where existence is optimal.
Basically avoiding any sort of extremism will always be the most efficient path because of uncertainty and imperfection of our existence.
He mostly applied it to virtues of living like justice or wisdom. Sure you can close yourself off and study non-stop or fight all of the injustice in the world without sleep but this is not sustainble and diminishing returns reaches a point where the energy input is no longer returning positive results or even decreasing the overall output.
Imo this applies to basically everything including politics. Because political systems are so complex (and people are so complex) it’s imposible to control the systwm without leaving space for imperfection. So you can be a socialist but you still need to respect some individual freedoms, you can be a libertarian but you still have to admit that some things need to be forbidden for smooth sailing basically.
I can certainly second this as an American who emigrated to Germany. I considered myself a strong “Bernie-leftist” in the States yet gravitate more towards the political center here.
I’ve always considered myself a libertarian, but I’m coming to realize I need to find another word. I used to be able to explain that assholes were ruining the name, but now the assholes outnumber people like me by too much.
I think the real turning point was when Jo Jorgensen said, “It is not enough to be passively not racist, we must be actively anti-racist,” and then she had to walk it back because the libertarian party was so fucking racist. Like, that’s not even a political statement. It’s a moral one, and it’s one I agree with.
Then when the Libertarian Party changed their stance on abortion, I was done with them. I clung to the lowercase L label, but at this point it doesn’t seem worth it anymore.
I just think the government should be limited to things that only the government can handle. Policing? Roads? Business regulations? Those are all things that can only be handled by the government. Restrictions on what kind of stove I can buy? Restrictions on what I can put in my body or how I dress or what my kids can read at school? Those are all bullshit.
I guess it helps that I align with Democrats on most of the major issues now, but I still won’t consider myself a Democrat.
Stoves are a great example of why the richest among us want to push libertarianism. You see the freedom to buy a gas stove. They see the freedom to make products that are one penny cheaper but kill their users.
Libertarianism and anarchism in general fail to account for sociopaths who are willing to make others suffer for their own gain.
Libertarianism and anarchism in general fail to account for sociopaths who are willing to make others suffer for their own gain.
Yeah this is the main thing keeping me from adopting anarchism in any meaningful way… I like the concept of mutual aid, but I think anarchism itself relies too heavily on the idea that all people are inherently good. I think that the events of the past decade or so have eliminated all doubt for me that this isn’t the case.
Don’t get me wrong, I think there’s useful lessons in anarchism and leftist libertarianism. They aren’t bad philosophies, just not workable in a pure state
For sure.
Stoves that kill their users should be a violation of the Harm principle. If this isn’t hyperbole then please provide a link to libertarians advocating this — I’m curious to see if/how they’ve carved an exception or otherwise addressed it or weaseled out of it; please link.
Literally one comment up bud, that I responded to.
You missed the part where moakley mentioned business regulations, and the part where I pluralized libertarians and used the word “advocating”.
Please don’t get me wrong — I do want to see links, as it’s unlikely you chose those words without seeing a prior scenario or two.
Anarchism accounts for them just fine. The solution is to kick them out of society.
It’s just a damn shame that we’ve all proven to be cowards and unwilling to do it.
So if we all got together and voted someone out? What if we don’t have time? Should we use representatives?
I mean, how is that any qualitatively different than people enforcing stove regulations themselves? They could do it themselves, with enough motivation.
Conservatives didn’t ruin libertarianism. Libertarianism has always been bad.
Restrictions on what kind of stove I can buy?
Stuff like this is a perfect example of the issues with libertarian ideology. They want freedom to continue to destroy the environment.
I don’t want to destroy the environment. I just like cooking. Surely there are solutions that allow me to still have a nice stove.
“I should be able to have everything exactly the same and it’s the others that need to change”. Induction stoves work fine.
Yeah, I never said anything like that. That’s reductive.
It’s not reductive. You think you should be fine with having your gas stove, no matter what. It demonstrates no willingness to compromise to save the planet.
Induction is your friend
No it isn’t. I’d be willing to try one, but I think gas is better.
Libertarianism is just Conservative Lite. They do t want to look like they are associated with the crazy Ultra-Right but still want to participate.
That’s not the case for me.
I’ve always considered myself a libertarian, but I’m coming to realize I need to find another word.
Other libertarian here. Let me know when you find one.
Then when the Libertarian Party changed their stance on abortion, I was done with them.
Oh, that enraged me. How the hell can these mother fuckers claim to be against big government when they support the government literally policing people’s bodies?
I guess it helps that I align with Democrats on most of the major issues now, but I still won’t consider myself a Democrat.
Same here. Democrats spent too many years telling me I’m “toxic” and “privileged” and treating me as if I’m a problem to be dealt with rather than a human being, plus let’s face it, they’re fucking pussies with no spine who will never grow balls big enough to stand up to Trump in any meaningful way. The ONLY reason I voted Democrat the last three Presidential elections was because Trump and MAGA were obviously worse.
That was pretty much my story until a few years ago, but once I moved past the ‘us vs them’ paradigm, I switched. I’m a Democrat now
I don’t really identify with parties. I just tell people I’m “me”.
“I’m not a member of any organized political party; I’m a Democrat.”
I just think the government should be limited to things that only the government can handle… Business regulations? Those are all things that can only be handled by the government. Restrictions on what kind of stove I can buy? …Those are all bullshit.
So the government should be able to regulate what businesses can do, but not what businesses are allowed to sell? Seems legit.
Libertarianism is just a way to soft-sell Totalitarian Plutocracy.
I was about to say “letting the rich fuck us in the ass without even the courtesy of a reacharound” but your answer is more acceptable in polite society.
Now, now, they also weaponized it to siphon off democratic votes BEFORE they started pushing the current Totalitarian Plutocracy.
It can do two things!
I haven’t always agreed with him politically, but Penn Jillette seems like a good dude.
Another massive W for Thought, the chief glory of mankind.
