Those HR people who make the listing don’t understand most of it anyway.
“I’m looking fora Data Analyst”
“Gotcha, we put up an ad for Data Science”
“No, Data Analyst, that’s diff-”
“Here, we already got some applicants”
“They’ll be very disappointed to learn that I’m not interested in their AI skills”
I’m learning how many names there are now for “person who can shoot and edit video” since I last needed to look for a job in my field. To the point that I suddenly find a new keyword and there’s like 10 more jobs I can apply for.
Oh lord, as a 25 year industry vet in everything audio and video, that’s been with my current company for a looooong time, this bothers me. Out of interest what kinda whacky names are you seeing for this kinda roll?
Weird-ass shit like “Lead Creative” and “Social Marketing Executive”
It’s also ridiculous how often I see „Java“ instead of „JavaScript“ in job listings.
Edit: Not trying to judge Java here, this is purely about recruiters not knowing the difference, posting jobs for Java devs when they need JS devs
Maybe they have a ton of different machines and need an app that works in any environment?
Agreed, why haven’t we killed java off? It’s terrible and there are replacements. At least with JavaScript it’s terrible but a monopoly.
Before I graduated I was encouraged to apply for a job that required a four year degree.
Don’t worry about it - we know you, they said.
When I submitted my application online it was automatically rejected because the application program correctly flagged that I didn’t meet the requirement of having a four year degree.
This is when you call them directly and tell them that. They can override the automation.
and if they won’t/can’t, then there’s an easy answer as to whether it’s worth working there at all
So, what do you do? The problem is it’s also difficult from the hiring side. Every opening has dozens to hundreds of applicants, most of whom are not qualified. No one can keep up with that, and recruiters/hr are horrible at it. Automation sucks, but it’s the quickest, easiest, fairest way to identify a smaller group that you hope are the ones who are qualified
We can put someone like an intern at the top of the pile because we know them, officially.
Sounds like you need to rotate your technical staff into the recruiting process.
Do they spend any time speaking with recruitment/hr?
Of course we all give feedback to recruiters, and typically ask for a new pile with the adjusted criteria. There’s even been times when we asked for everything, no filters, but we can’t afford to have technical people tied up going through piles of resumes
I do believe it’s tougher than it looks. Recruiters need to understand the field to know what to look for, and understand enough about what the company is looking for but they just don’t.
Earlier in my career it seemed like there were specialist recruiters who could do that: find the right people to place with the right company. However now it seems to have degenerated into salesmanship and quantity over quality. Or I don’t know if I’m just earlier in the process now, helping to identify who is worth interviewing, rather than just being another interviewer
Its systems like that forced me to get an expensive qualification that I don’t need simply so humans will actually see my resume. I don’t need the qualification, I have industry experience going back over a decade but because I don’t have a magical qualification, that is recognized by the entire industry as being utterly useless, that didn’t even exist when I started in the industry I had to fork out £600.
But how do they know you don’t need the qualification? I’m sure the people who know you could say, but what makes you qualified to a stranger?
It’s the same problem as standardized testing for school. Everyone seems u to understand it’s a bad idea except that you need something
Well my experience right otherwise I wouldn’t have had such a long career in the industry if I didn’t know what I was doing.
The problem is that the job of hiring has been turned over to people that don’t understand the job, so me an industry veteran and somebody first out of high school are treated exactly the same because we both have the same qualification.
Why yes, I do thrive under pressure. It’s why I use a weighted blanket.
I’d like to be
Under the sea
In an octopus’s garden
in the shade
a friend once got me a job interview with his company. he listened into the interview, and i could hear him audibly gasp when the interviewer asked, “why do you want to work for us?”. I replied plainly, “To make a living so that I may pursue my real goals.” I didn’t get the job…
I’m not technically NT but I have ADHD and I don’t have problems picking up this sort of neurotypical social cues.
When I interview people myself, I’m extra wary of catering to ND people, and for questions like this, I phrase them very carefully to mean what I want to ask:
“Why do you want to work for us? I’m sure there were other jobs out there that would result in a salary, but what made you apply for this one specifically?”
I make clear in the conversation that I want to know their motivation, their alignment to the specific role, and not the fact that they need money to live. I already know that! So I tailor the questions to give me exactly what I need even if the person is, say, autistic and takes things in the most literal way.
This post has, however, made me realise that in the job posting I have open right now, I’m going to add a note in the vein of “this is a wishlist of all the things the ideal candidate would have, but we acknowledge nobody is ever a 100% perfect match - feel free to apply even if you only meet some of the criteria as you might be more qualified than most applicants”.
I have always appreciated the listings that divide the list between the “must haves,” even soft ones (e.g. 4yr degree, knowledge of X tool, Y years of experience, solid communication skills), and “our ideal candidate will have most of the following” (e.g. Y+3 years of experience, prior role in management, knowledge of Z regulation).
The 4 year degree one is still never a must have. The only things that are true must haves are certifications for federally regulated jobs, like requiring a PE.
There are things they actually care about enough to throw out your resume on pre-screen though. That’s de facto required for that particular job.
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Hit them back with “why do you want to hire me?”
Or even better: “why should I pick your offer?”
One trick is to have the mindset that you are in high demand
“Well, I enjoy doing my job anywhere but I’d prefer to do it somewhere that I want to be. I’ve checked out this company and didn’t see any red flags, but later on when you ask me if I have any questions, I’ll be asking about what it’s like to work here and if there are any unique challenges that come with working here”
I see what you mean, but you have to read in between the lines a little bit. When they ask that question, they want to know why you’d rather work for them than anyone else hiring in that space.
Your answer makes it sound like you have zero interest in the company. I’m sure that you’d rather work for them than a myriad of other places if you actually applied. Think of why that is and focus on the positives. It’s not lying unless you literally had zero reason to work there as opposed to anywhere else.
Oh? I am not supposed to take a question at face value? I need some form of, wink wink, unspoken knowledge of human interaction that was not specified in the job offer? jfc
You’re supposed to lie. Because everyone who is not a true believer in the cause - of the product, the company, the industry, the economy, capitalism, whatever it may be, is also lying. Because the whole system depends on everyone going along with it, otherwise it all falls apart. That you have to slave away at your shitty job with shitty managers so that one day you can become the manager and be shitty because it happened to you, all in service of the exploitation of natural resources and people and society to make line go up and make the people who managed to step on the most amount people on their way to the top that much richer.
Yeah they don’t specify every parameter of human interaction in writing before you have a meeting. I’m not saying that it’s easy, but it’s just one of the challenges of dealing with people. Best of luck with future interviews though. The whole way we hire people in the corporate world has this crazy song and dance to it, but IMO it’s better to learn it a bit. Try not to let it influence your style so much that you’re not telling the company about yourself at all, but learning what kinds of answers the company is looking for can make it much easier to know what the heck to talk about when asked these weird questions.
Yes, and then don’t provide “real” answers at the interview, make up stuff they want to hear, be friendly and create small talk with a complete stranger, act like you actually GAF about the company when all you want to do is just get a job and start working, screw all this people-interaction stuff.
For me, getting the interview is the hard part.
I’ve never interviewed for a job where I didn’t get the offer. I can’t say exactly what works for me, but I can explain my process a bit.
First off, I go in confident. a lot of that probably had to do with my history with interviews, but that’s the first part.
Secondly, I look at it as me interviewing the company. I want to know the company is right for me. To that end, I ask a lot of questions about the position and the team. I ask if they’re looking to fill a hole or are willing to have the role reinvented.
Obviously, that last bit is for taking a unique role in the comment, not just as cashier number 23.
I am also clear that I’m not looking to remain in that position forever. I want to work at it a few years and move on, wither within the company or elsewhere. I won’t bail in 6 months, but I also won’t do the same job with no evolution for 10 years. My career needs to grow.
Essentially, I try to interview in a manner where they’re trying to win me over instead of weed me out.
I’m my current job, I was relaxed, got the interviewers talking family and casually about the projects, started giving feedback on issues as if I was already on board, and essentially changed it from an interview to a group meeting.
It turns out I was asking for about 30% more than my competition, but they gave it to me anyway, and it all came down to making myself feel like a member of the team they wanted to hold onto rather than just someone looking for a paycheck.
And I’m absolutely there for the paycheck. I liked my old job a lot more, but I got like a 60% pay bump going to the new job.
Years ago when I was applying for my first job I actually had to pretend that it always been my dream to work as a shelf stacker. It was such a weird game because everyone involved knows that it’s a total lie, they know your just telling them what they want to hear, you know that they know that you’re just telling them what they want to hear, they know that you know that they know you’re just telling them what they want to hear. But it doesn’t matter, you still have to go through the charade.
If you tell him the truth, that you’ll disappear as soon as you find someone prepared to pay you more than minimum wage, they won’t hire you. Despite the fact that everyone involved knows that that is the case, regardless of how honest you are about it.
yes that’s the point
they want someone desperate enough to lie to them and to themselves that their childhood dream is to become a shelf stacker, they want someone out of options, they want someone who will stay with them for a long time without even as much as a whimper of a complaint about low pay or the working conditions
if you have ambitions, you’re not who they’re looking for
best believe the same company will keep a ghost job listing for a shelf stacker up at all times, just so that the current employees feel replaceable and don’t dare to step out of line in fear of losing their job
But it doesn’t change even if you’re searching for executive-level jobs. They still want to know why you not only have wanted to be Junior VP of Marketing your entire life, they want to know why you have also wanted to be Junior VP of Marketing of ConHugeCo Industries all your life while applying to work that position at ConHugeCo.
Everyone knows the answer is “because I want this job more than the one I have right now” or just “because I need a job.” Those are really the only two answers.
It’s really ridiculous.
well i think half my point still stands - they want to know you’re not quitting any time soon. If you answer “yeah sure i guess the position sounds nice” they’re already scheduling the next interview because you ain’t sticking around
but yeah, it is absolutely ridiculous, i’m not an actor, and i’m neurodivergent, navigating those job market mind games is hell
I don’t understand why op thinks they are special for going through this workflow. Women are way less likely than men to ignore job requirements when applying for jobs and many many people have to be reminded that job requirements are fluffy. Are all these people “neurodivergent”? We seem to want to apply this term everywhere for some reason.
I think most people are like this but neurodivergent people have trouble coming to terms with breaking the rules. As in they see an incongruity between the stated rule and the way everyone behaves. What OP is talking about is textbook neurodivergence behavior though I’m sure other people experience this to some degree.
As a neurodivergent, this. Exactly. I couldn’t have said it better myself. I literally cannot because I’d quickly ramble on and talk about seemingly unimportant things for like, three sentences, but only use commas, so that it looks/reads as a single sentence, then ultimately say what you said, but I would say it worse somehow.
I’m ADHD. AMA?
I used to do that with elipses until I was scathingly mocked on a BBS when I was a teenager. It takes me longer but it did make me better at writing for others to read on the internet.
I don’t think that op thinks they’re special by going through the workflow. I think op thinks that the workflow lands differently on them because of their condition. I think op thinks that it’s related to their condition because no one else seems to be complaining about this and so maybe neurotypicals aren’t as bothered by this.
Yeah, this is an oddly common sentiment amongst those that make neurodivergence their personality; which is funny because it’s more common to be neurodivergent than neurotypical. While it’s usually said that 20% of people are neurodivergent, it’s actually more than 50% when you include everything that constitutes neurodivergence and even account for significant overlap.
I think “neurotypical” by now means “I wanna say ‘normie I look down upon’, but I don’t want to sound like an incel”
Nope. I’m neurodivergent, I know a lot of neurodivergent people. We all kind of gravitated to eachother over time. Some are ADHD, like me, some are on the spectrum for autism, and there’s a bunch more that I simply cannot list because the list is pretty long.
I can tell you that zero of the neurodivergent people I know use the term “neurotypical” to mean anything like what you suggest. In every context it’s meant to exemplify the lack of mental struggle that some people have in their daily life in contrast to what most neurodivergent people experience.
Eg, anxiety and paralysis when contemplating or engaging in anything remotely social. For some neurodivergents, such activity evokes a very strong reaction. Some neurotypicals also experience something similar, usually less severe at least; but the experience is not unique to us.
The most common derogatory use of “neurotypical” that I’ve seen is regarding empathy, or the lack thereof, from people who have not experienced a major mental health event, and are so neurotypical that they cannot even fathom the struggles of people who are neurodivergent.
You all don’t understand, then victim blame us and call us lazy, when our brain chemistry literally prevents us from making any useful progress on stuff. Then there’s a whole swath of you that shames us for using meds to help correct the discomfort of being wired differently in a world that isn’t designed to accommodate, or even sympathise with us.
Now we’re being, more or less, accused of using “neurotypical” as a slur to hide that we’re incels?
Seriously?
What if they meant it from the perspective of a neurotypical?
If they want to take offense at what is essentially a synonym for “normal, societally accepted brain function” the sure lol
are y’all actually gatekeeping diversity?
It’s not lying as much as it’s advertising. If they’re asking about your greatest weakness, tell them. Just don’t neglect to mention how you mitigate that weakness too, and are improving. Don’t let your answer end on “I’m a disorganized mess”, end it on “so in the last year, I’ve started building and using checklists and it’s been really effective”.
In the same way, be up front if they ask about the criteria you don’t meet. But consider your entire answer, again, you can say something like “I actually haven’t worked in that language before, but I’ve done lots of work in Python and Java, so I’m confident I can pick it up quickly as needed”. If they don’t ask, then it probably wasn’t really that important of a criteria to them, so you shouldn’t waste your interview time talking about it either.
Don’t volunteer all your worst traits, you only have an hour, so focus on describing your strengths as often as you can. Nobody expects to completely understand you as a person in one hour, they’re specifically asking you to come in and advertise yourself. Instead, read between the lines in the listing (I.E. Things mentioned in the job description or title are likely more important than something in a single bullet point. Look for repetition, or how much they talk about each requirement.). Figure out what the “customer” wants that you’re good at, and ensure you emphasize it, repeatedly. Define clear takeaways and make sure they know what you’re offering, and will actually remember it too.
And practice your answers to many questions. Come up with your best anecdotes for “a time you resolved a conflict with a coworker” and all that nonsense in advance, so that you can confidently segue into those stories that best emphasize your takeaways when asked. Do some research on the company to come up with a good answer to questions like “why do you want to work here?”. The answer doesn’t have to be your top priority, which is obviously “a paycheque”, but just append an unsaid “instead of somewhere else” and answer honestly, because people are good at detecting insincerity. You likely haven’t applied to every company on earth, so tell them why you chose them.
Lastly, like an advertiser, don’t be afraid to segue from other questions into your prepared answers. “Yeah, I’ve always loved X, that’s why I wanted to work here actually, I’d heard a bit about how you were getting involved with X, but with this interesting twist, and thought that sounded like something I’d really enjoy working on”. The interview questions are designed to get you talking about yourself, it’s not a survey where the strict questions are all that matter, and you can simply joke about it if the question comes up later.
A lot of this is tied into rhetoric. Rhetoric is a skill. You don’t need to lie. You need to tell the truth good.
saving this for future reference. I’ve told this to many of friends over the years, but you’ve laid it out more beautifully than I ever did
I have a stable job that I like.
Sometimes I think I should go to interviews just to make recruiters feel insecure, “your business is not up to my expectations” “what do you mean you don’t provide flexible remote working?” “Your paycheck is just too small for me, sorry”.
I would get a laugh of of it and probably would help some fella by lowering this fuckers ego.
I do this all the time. Keeps my interview skills sharp. Plus you never know when somewhere will wind up making you an insane offer.
How do you do something like this when most interviews happen during work hours?
It’s a lot easier if you have an office job, even easier if you’re full time remote. My experience has been the first round is over the phone, in which case before the pandemic I used to just go find an empty meeting room or go out to my car to take the call. For in person interviews, I’ll “have an appointment” and take a half day.
Your motives are horrible. Hiring managers in any org larger than a few hundred people have very little control over anything you mentioned. So you’re just taking time away from other applicants and time away from the needs of the people who already work at a place in order to satisfy your pettiness.
If you actually did this rather than just wanting to, you would be the bad guy in the situation.
That whole routine doesn’t magically make sense to neurotypical people either.
As an autistic person I relate to this so hard it isn’t funny.
As a non-autistic person, it’s also incredibly annoying. Job hunting has always been a really stupid system with lots of really stupid rules of thumbs.
Half of the requirements listed aren’t even actual requirements; they’re just listing their tech stack. For example, if I see NodeJS, I know I’ll be deploying web apps, not coding them. I don’t even read the requirements most of the time. If the title matches and there’s no security clearance required, I’m applying.
I swear my company has one list of requirements for all jobs. Every time I am part of the hiring process I have to correct it
I took a job as a medical assistant. I was not certified. It was during COVID, and the manager was woefully understaffed. I had zero experience or training. They still hired me, because in her words “we can teach you everything you need to know, and your resume demonstrated you were a good learner so that’s all that matters.” (I had taught myself Chinese and coding, and put that on the resume).
I worked my butt off, and after two years when I had to leave to go back to school they offered me a massive raise, more training to get me a promotion as an actual technician to start making 80k/year, and they even said when I finished grad school I could be taken on as a partner and own the business (it was a small clinic). They wanted to do anything to get me to stay.
All these companies these days care too much about certs. They don’t know how to hire. They should look for resume’s that demonstrate learning, initiative, responsibility, and commitment. Because at the end of the day: almost anyone can learn any job that isn’t a PhD-level.
Like, having managers be required to have a college degree is moronic.
I think of myself as a neutodivergent person but I am annoyed by neurodivergent people who act like everything is binary yes/no black/white full volume/absolute silence. Like, everyone in the world knows that the gas pedal in the car is not an on/off switch and believe it or not but other things in life are like that.
Black and white thinking is pretty common in ASD though isn’t it?
Yes, and this is why it’s a disorder and can be a disability despite people saying things like "autism is my super power ". It’s not funny when strict rigid thinking runs up against fluid reality. People make absolute rules in their heads and when the real world doesn’t align with those rules they can suffer real distress.
I guess that’s my point. I agree with you. ASD make up a large portion of ND. I don’t personally like the ND identity even with an ADHD diagnosis (and have quite obvious symptoms when off my meds).
The reason I don’t like it is because if you use it as an identity, suddenly my experience needs to be accepted by everyone. I need the medicine to function in this society. To appear as a functioning adult. If I just said to people “Im neurodivergent” and expect them to handle my lengthy train of thought and wild imagination I would probably not have a job.
It isn’t race, ethnicity, a sexuality or gender - that is an identity that affects no one regardless of occupation or status except the individual. Neurodivergent disorders affect you, your family, your friends, your employer, your customers, your classmates, etc.
And depression
What I’ve learned from Lemmy is that everyone is neurodivergent.
Get out of here with your smart and reasonable take!
A lot og questions can be answered diplomatically and show that you are able to handle yourself:
Q: do you like the colour red?
A1: I hate red
A2: I don’t like red
A3: Not my favourite colour
A4: I prefer blue
In this entirely made up and pointless exercise you hate red and are asked if you like it. Real world applications converging on zero.
On a scale of lie to truth, where are you comfortable with representing your thoughts of red in an interview?
And remember, only Sith deals in absolutes🙃
*Edited layout
The thing is, they are treacherous with their questions. Because the question itself doesn’t matter, what you answer is not the question itself, but the hidden question behind.
This means they don’t trust you to answer honestly, and yet, once you know how the process goes, they actually encourage people to be treacherous too.
This is a lose-lose strategy that they’re using. They are selecting treacherous people instead of qualified people. Probably because they are not qualified themselves, and because qualifications don’t matter to most companies. What matters is appearances and selling an idea.
Whaaaaat are you even talking about?
What’s an example?
And for context are we talking “applying to the best buy” or are we talking “applying to a professional or trade-type career”?
What does “best buy” mean? I’m talking applying to a job, from my perspective of engineering, but I’m comfident it applies for most jobs anyway.
Even if you don’t qualify, job hunting is just throwing your resume to the wall and see what sticks. You got nothing to lose by applying.
You got nothing to lose by applying.
Nothing to lose but your sanity.
and self esteem when a CV scanning AI sends you an automated rejection e-mail how you’re not qualified to work a job that specifically has “no qualifications or experience needed!” written in the listing
logic knows it’s bullshit, but man, it still stings to read
Every rejection email is a sting too. Even if you knew you weren’t going to get the job but applied anyway because what the hell, knowing that you’re not going to get that dream job at Nintendo still hurts a little when you find out.
And your dignity.
Yeah except then they make you fill out a really long form to actually apply because no one accepts CVs anymore
Eh, fuck em.
Send it anyway. One of em might read it.
Maybe even call you bold for applying that way.
