Was banned from !egg_irl@lemmy.blahaj.zone for calling out a Mod’s misuse of the Egg prime directive to criticize trans people for helping out trans women in denial of their trans-ness. They’re denying the validity of signs of being transgender, what the actual fuck, this shit is not okay. Then after banning me that dipshit locks the post so no one else can reply on it. How is this not power-tripping?
Modlog history for my account: https://discuss.online/modlog?userId=11993717
Can you all stop downvoting the OP? Please?
OP, you probably already the stuff that I’m going to say; I’ll share for the sake of others.
Here’s what I believe to be the first part of the comic from the OOP (it seems to have been deleted):
TL;DR of the “Egg Prime Directive”: “the fact that trans people have an unspoken agreement not to tell people who are questioning their gender whether or not they are trans.”
Now here’s my take: YDI.
We humans do the same things for different reasons. And we should not be assuming why someone else does it.
That’s one of the aspects of the egg prime directive, and the mod is simply acknowledging it - that the only person who perhaps knows why that AMAB kid is playing as a girl character is the kid themself. (Or why the AFAB kid is playing as a boy character.)
The other aspect is that, even if the person happens to be trans, you don’t break an egg open from the outside; instead you keep the egg warm and the nest comfy. You don’t deny it, but you don’t confirm it, you make sure that the person feels loved regardless of their identity.
So no, the egg prime directive is not some “vague ass ideology”, as you called it. It has good reasons to exist. Not following it does more harm than good.
Beyond that: yes, you were enforcing gender stereotypes. And yes, you were rude and hostile.
I also think that the 2d “chill your head!” ban was appropriate.
That mod was denying the validity of the signs of being trans, and they’re not even trans themselves. Does it really seem appropriate to take advice from a cis person about what it really means to be trans?
I know that I reacted strongly but the fact is they really should not be a mod there, they’re hiding behind the Egg prime directive to deny the experiences of real trans women because they think our stories about coming out are forcing gender stereotypes.
Also that mod very clearly overstepped by locking the post so no one else could criticize him for his invalidation of transfem experiences of being eggs and the signs we didn’t see. Is that okay and justified for him to be able to silence people like that?
Please, don’t misgender the mod. They identify as agender, not cis. This should be respected, even if you disagree with them.
The “core” of the advice comes from someone who’s trans, Cassie LaBelle. The mod just applied it to this specific case.
And even if the mod wasn’t from another group of people who, just like you, are also marginalised because of their gender (or lack of)… well, what matters is what is said, not who says it.
I’m cis, mind you. I’m talking about this here because it’s how this comm works: you share something, then others say if they think that you, the mod, both, or neither are right. (And because I have trans friends who often talk about stuff, I hope I can relay their views a wee bit.)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but from your comments it seems that people were actively denying that you were trans, for a long time. What the mod is doing is something else entirely; they are not saying “your experience as a trans woman is invalid!”, they’re saying “everyone has different experiences”. What was a sign for you might not be for someone else, and vice versa.
Also that mod very clearly overstepped by locking the post so no one else could criticize him for his invalidation of transfem experiences of being eggs and the signs we didn’t see. Is that okay and justified for him to be able to silence people like that?
I’d probably do the same - it’s a 3m old post, it had lots of activity, but the new activity is being combative.
If they genuinely wanted to silence you the ban wouldn’t be just two days.
That mod said on more than one occasion that he was a femboy and he’s used he/him pronouns to describe himself. I’m not misgendering him just because he chooses to sometimes call himself Agender but almost never really refers to himself that way. If he actually is I’m really confused since most Agender people aren’t also femboys.
When people haven’t lived the experience they won’t have accurate knowledge on the subject of the trans experience, and shouldn’t be telling other people whether signs are valid of being trans or not. Signs are valid and can identify someone being trans before they identify it themselves.
Cassie seems to support the idea that many trans people need help, that they are terrible at listening to their inner voice. She even craved it herself. I don’t think this helps that mod’s cause, if anything it just shows how bad what he’s doing is.
That mod is denying the validity of signs off being transgender, and saying they aren’t signs. In a community dedicated to breaking out of denial and recognizing that one is trans. I have been invalidated a lot and I’ve been in fierce denial, people shouldn’t have to live through that, they should be helped out.
I also don’t think the mod was trying to silence me specifically but any criticism of his words. Maybe he didn’t want to call negative attention to himself and get removed as a mod for permanently banning a trans woman from a trans community, he still banned be though, and he locked the post so people can’t criticize him for saying those awful invalidating things.
Why are you suggesting what is cis or trans or anything else for someone else’s brain? It comes off like bullies I might have seen in the 90s. “Oh you like art and fantasy? F**!” “Oh you like cooking, like a woman???” It’s best not to make rules of identity for how people express themselves.
Liking art didn’t make me gay, and liking cooking didn’t make me a woman, despite what someone said about me then.
Sometimes people need tough love and tough love can feel like bullying but it’s still good for them and helps them out of denial. Liking those things doesn’t make you trans, it’s a sign that you likely are trans, don’t twist my words that’s a bad faith argument used by cis people who invalidate the egg movement, which is evil because breaking people’s eggs saves lives. Getting people out of denial and able to accept themselves and transition literally saves people’s lives, because trans people who don’t get the care they need literally feel so bad they want to kill themselves.
As a trans woman who wears jeans and Ts and feels more at home in a machine shop than a stitch and bitch (although stitch and bitches rock) the narrative that feminine coded behaviour is a necessary and/or sufficient condition for being a trans woman is deeply damaging medicalised bullshit.
Don’t push people to perform cisness or transness, just let them discover themselves.
I’m not saying that people need to perform in ways to be trans. I myself am like that I don’t act or dress particularly feminine (been denied official care for that as well) I am saying though that for many people these are signs and the mod is denying the validity of signs that people are trans with their statements while hiding behind the egg prime directive.
YDI, and it’s a 2 day ban, chill out.
‘Cis boys can’t play as girl characters or have long hair or dress feminine’ is a gender stereotype. There’s no reason cis boys can’t do that. Or trans boys for that matter.
You mention in your comment that you could’ve transitioned earlier if someone just forced you to stop being in denial, but the thing is everyone isn’t you with the exact same needs as you had. There are feminine men out there who don’t need to be told that actually, they’re women and lying to themselves. Some of them may or may not wind up deciding to transition in some way. But that is something for them to decide, not for you to force on them because you have distressing feelings about when you started your own transition.
Everyone needs support to explore their gender and gender expression, no matter what it is. If you’d had that you would have likely accepted your gender and transitioned sooner. It sucks that you didn’t have it (I didn’t either), but we can’t change that now. All you can do is try to make that environment for other people, and telling them that their gender must be this because of x, y, z reason isn’t a supportive environment for exploring gender.
Lies, I’m still banned even though it’s been 2 days:
Question I’m asking is how did he make a permanent ban look like a temporary one in the log 🤔
You mention in your comment that you could’ve transitioned earlier if someone just forced you to stop being in denial, but the thing is everyone isn’t you with the exact same needs as you had. There are feminine men out there who don’t need to be told that actually, they’re women and lying to themselves. Some of them may or may not wind up deciding to transition in some way. But that is something for them to decide, not for you to force on them because you have distressing feelings about when you started your own transition.
For many people these behaviors are not something normal cis people would do, they think it’s normal something that every cis person does, even though it isn’t. I’m not saying to force anything onto them, I’m saying tell them about being trans, that it’s not exactly normal for people to do this stuff, they may think it is but come on, how many normal cis guys do you know who dress as, play as, and act like girls? I thought I knew some, but they ended up not being cis.
Everyone needs support to explore their gender and gender expression, no matter what it is. If you’d had that you would have likely accepted your gender and transitioned sooner. It sucks that you didn’t have it (I didn’t either), but we can’t change that now. All you can do is try to make that environment for other people, and telling them that their gender must be this because of x, y, z reason isn’t a supportive environment for exploring gender.
You don’t know the younger version of me, she was very stubborn and felt like she was a boy and it was totally normal to want to be a girl sometimes. I was stupid and arrogant and did not want to be trans, but being trans isn’t something you can choose, can’t just stop being trans, and I really paid for it later due to my much later transition. You could’ve talked to younger me about how trans is a thing and I would’ve said it didn’t apply to me. I wish someone would’ve given me that kick and said “Hey dipshit you’re trans, whether you like it or not” and countered all my dumbass excuses about being a boy and how it’s normal for boys to do this, because it isn’t and wasn’t.
I’m not saying to force anything onto them, I’m saying tell them about being trans, that it’s not exactly normal for people to do this stuff
Yes, that is the bad part. You shouldn’t be telling anyone that it’s not normal to express their gender however they’re expressing it. Even if you think it’s for their own good.
If they literally do not know trans people exist or you’re correcting stereotypes about trans people that’s one thing, but if they do already know all that then… that’s it, you don’t need to do anymore. People need to take it at the pace they need to take it at, even if that pace isn’t the pace you’d have taken it at. (Assuming they are trans and not just gender nonconforming.)
Looking back at your own behavior as a child or teen and seeing how it was an expression of you being trans is absolutely fine, and so is wishing it had gone differently. But you can’t project those wishes onto other people.
But it isn’t exactly normal is it? I mean most boys don’t like to act and dress like girls, they don’t play as girls in games, grow long hair. For most people these would be considered signs of being the other gender or being NB.
Also I get what you’re saying about people going their own pace but you have to understand that people waiting too long to figure out that they are trans can be detrimental to their chances of passing and therefore their mental health. Some people kill themselves because it feels hopeless when transitioning later and I know the feeling. It sucks that my voice will probably never pass without surgery. If I had broken the egg as early as possible and began transition then, I would perfectly pass right now, even if I’d waited until I was 18 I would’ve still been better off than I am now.
I don’t see how playing girls in games means anything? I play girls in games because I’m straight and girls are cute and I like to look at cute things.
So you think girls are so cute you wanna be one? Are you still sure that you’re entirely cis buddy 🥚
I don’t want to be one…I like to look at them, there’s a reason I only play as girls in 3rd person games XD.
There’s lots of reasons people might play girls in any games, question is are those the real reasons or are you in denial that you might actually want to be a girl deep down inside and not know it 😏
YDI
If someone acted like this towards me, told me I absolutely had to be trans, I would have stayed in that egg way fucking longer. You don’t get to decide someone is trans anymore than a mod does, the only person who can decide is the person themselves.
You’re being hostile in what should be a friendly and welcoming space, the mod did a good thing here and you probably need to spend some time reflecting on your actions.
I apologize for being angry and losing my cool, but come on, that mod shouldn’t even be a mod there, he’s a femboy, not trans. Why should he be allowed to sit there and deny the signs of being trans to other trans women then lock the post after silencing me so no one can criticize him anymore. Am I the only one who sees that as wrong?
Playing girls in videogames is a sign of being trans now? Hello stereotype.
It is :) Most cis boys don’t enjoy playing as girls, it’s a very eggy thing to do.
Yep, every guy who ever played tomb raider is actually trans.
Did you play it because it was a fun game, or did you play it because you could be a girl in that game? 😏
I’m a cis girl irl, so that’s kinda hard to answer
Pro-tip: Cis people really shouldn’t be giving pointers when it comes to the trans experience.
You’re literally asking for the perspective of cis people who play as the opposing gender in games. You’re not discussing the trans experience.
I’ve played plenty of 3rd person games as male and female. If there’s not an option, I did it because it’s the game I want to play. If there’s an option, such as in an RPG, I sometimes do it because I role play.
I used to do it too to roleplay, and for some people it means nothing, but if you’re doing it all the time or regularly, it’s more likely that might be a sign… I did it all the time, I even drew pictures of myself as a girl, all the signs were there.
YDI, your behavior is incredibly hostile and uncalled for. Also WTF? Claiming people can’t play the girl characters and have long hair while still being cis? What the hell, that sounds so dumb and outdated, people can like whatever the fuck they want without it having a deeper meaning. Who the Fuck do you think you are to try and argue otherwise?
Also it’s a two day ban, take the mod’s advice and cool your head, instead of starting more shit.
Hey wait a minute, you’re that dipshit who misgendered someone and said that Neopronouns aren’t valid. You have zero credibility in trans spaces and you should be banned from all of them, go fuck yourself you bigoted piece of shit.
Best to come with receipts when you say stuff like that about someone.
Here’s a public comment of this asshole denying the validity of nounself pronouns:
https://discuss.online/post/13103441/11998755
Throughout that thread they refused to use the correct neopronouns of that person (drag/dragself) and constantly criticized drag for it.
you literally linked to a comment in which Draconic_NEO said explicitly that neopronouns like xe/xer are valid. and last i checked, calling nounself pronouns “confusing and unintuitive” is not the same as calling them invalid. if you cannot find a concrete example of someone saying they believe something apart from one where they literally say the opposite of that thing, consider rethinking your stance.
He’s arguing that they shouldn’t be used because they’re “confusing and unintuitive” he’s denying the validity of them and refusing to use them, instead calling people who use them trolls. Dumbass is justifying his transphobia by referencing DroneRights and claiming people use those pronouns only to troll. What a repulsive thing to say about a trans person.
@Draconic_NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com you should be ashamed of yourself, and be banned from every instance on the Fediverse like the hateful transphobic troll you are.
for fuck’s sake, chill. they were calling out one specific trans person who was harassing people who weren’t using their preferred pronouns.
Draconic_NEO thinks that while trans people are valid, and neopronouns like xe/xer are valid, neoprounouns like “drag” that refer only to a single person cease to function as pronouns. when a word refers exclusively to a single person, that word is a proper noun. Draconic_NEO also thinks that hounding people over failure to use neopronouns is not especially poggers. these are both very reasonable stances.
by your comment history i’m guessing you’ve just started hormones. you’re definitely not the first trans girl who’s gone through a major emotional phase. hormones are running high – it’s no surprise you’re prone to lashing out. but i’d like to remind you that you’re saying that someone hates all trans people based on an opinion in reference to neopronouns, which are an entirely separate issue from the concept of transness and a contentious topic even among nonbinary people – an opinion, i might add, that that person has demonstrated they do not hold.
personally, I’d advocate against someone being banned from the entire Fediverse if they said being gay should be illegal – and i am gay. people’s opinions can change, and permanent bans from entire platforms do nothing except make them more bitter and more hateful. you can ban assholes from communities, and if you disagree with the mods on whether someone should be banned, lemmy has a block button for a reason.
more to the point, though, the point of the fediverse is, and has been from its inception, uncensorable freedom of speech. the fact that no corporation – and by extension no individual – can tell you what you can and can’t say, regardless of what that is, is literally the entire point. the fediverse is an unfathomably large place, not limited to the five or six instances you keep hearing about, and it is designed specifically so that it is impossible to completely ban someone. in fact, TruthSocial (Donald Tr*mp’s personal Tw*tter clone) is a Mastodon instance. the price we pay for nobody being able to tell us what we can and can’t post about here on fedi with regard to queerness is that we have no means to fight back against anti-gay/anti-trans dipshits besides defederation and the block button.
also, pro tip: pinging someone over and over and calling them a hateful bigot, especially when they aren’t, doesn’t make them change their mind, it just makes them annoyed at you.
for fuck’s sake, chill. they were calling out one specific trans person who was harassing people who weren’t using their preferred pronouns.
You don’t get to pick and choose which trans people are valid or who should have their pronouns respected. Anyone who does that is a transphobic dipshit.
Draconic_NEO thinks that while trans people are valid, and neopronouns like xe/xer are valid, neoprounouns like “drag” that refer only to a single person cease to function as pronouns. when a word refers exclusively to a single person, that word is a proper noun. Draconic_NEO also thinks that hounding people over failure to use neopronouns is not especially poggers. these are both very reasonable stances.
He repeatedly refused to use drag’s preferred pronouns, and continued to use they/them even though they aren’t drag’s pronouns. He is devaluing nounself pronouns and using that as an excuse not to use the person’s preferred pronouns. Which the dumb fuck hasn’t done even once.
by your comment history i’m guessing you’ve just started hormones. you’re definitely not the first trans girl who’s gone through a major emotional phase. hormones are running high – it’s no surprise you’re prone to lashing out. but i’d like to remind you that you’re saying that someone hates all trans people based on an opinion in reference to neopronouns, which are an entirely separate issue from the concept of transness and a contentious topic even among nonbinary people – an opinion, i might add, that that person has demonstrated they do not hold.
Real good faith argument there, trying to blame my anger about his transphobia on my hormones, just a whiny emotional tranny who’s upset because of her hormones. Typical response from a transphobe or someone sticking up for them. Draconic isn’t a transphobe because he has an opinion, he’s a transphobe because he refuses to use the person’s preferred pronouns and uses that statement about nounself pronouns as an excuse for his awful behavior.
personally, I’d advocate against someone being banned from the entire Fediverse if they said being gay should be illegal – and i am gay. people’s opinions can change, and permanent bans from entire platforms do nothing except make them more bitter and more hateful. you can ban assholes from communities, and if you disagree with the mods on whether someone should be banned, lemmy has a block button for a reason.
You’re against kicking bigots out of our safe spaces? You sound like someone from AskGayBros, especially after saying that shit about my hormones. I did block that dipshit, he asked me not to respond to him anymore so I obliged. He’s hurting trans people though by misgendering and being a bigot. That’s why he needs to be banned, not just because I’m a soft little tranny snowflake who’s upset by him, but because he’s an evil piece of shit.
more to the point, though, the point of the fediverse is, and has been from its inception, uncensorable freedom of speech.
aaaand that’s where I stop responding to your comment, proving all my suspicions about you earlier about you being one of those alt-right GayBros.
also, pro tip: pinging someone over and over and calling them a hateful bigot, especially when they aren’t, doesn’t make them change their mind, it just makes them annoyed at you.
Good, let the asshole be annoyed by the overly emotional and sensitive tranny snowflake, maybe it’ll make him say some shit that gets his ass banned
Hey @Draconic_NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com, is the emotional little tranny snowflake annoying you? Too bad, I’m not going anywhere until your ass is banned. I’m not going to cry and kill myself like you think I am no matter what you say to me you stupid fuck!
Oh, the dragon thing made quite a stir.
What @Draconic_NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com said is unacceptable and invalidating to many trans people, he should feel ashamed of himself and be banned from trans spaces for it.
Please do not mention me for this. Actually please don’t mention or reply to me at all. I don’t want to talk to you anymore. If you mention me again I’m reporting it as harassment.
Wish granted, blocked :)
I see nothing in their comment disregarding neopronouns or even nounself usage inherently, but instead discussing the inconsistent way the dragon person leveraged them.
Nounself pronouns are hard to write legibly with and drag failed to do so successfully. Why? Because drag is their handle as well. Nounself pronouns are not generally the first name of the speaker, as generally seen in the below links table of examples. (but of course not exhaustive examples)
The challenges many ( not just your target) commented on regarding the nounself pronouns are discussed here, and I think their conclusion is a good one. (Provide alternatives for expediency, and accessibility, as readability is inherently challenging)
https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Nounself_pronouns
That wiki certainly isn’t the bible but it’s reasonably discussing the topic, imo.
I am trying to be respectful to you now:
You seem very angry, across all your interactions here in this thread and around your experiences here. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot to be frustrated about in life. I’m not telling you to leave. That’s not my place. But I think you might find a happier experience with a bit of a break, and perhaps heavier curation of who you speak with, and where you hang out. Good luck.
(Provide alternatives for expediency, and accessibility, as readability is inherently challenging)
No, people do not owe other people easy alternatives to just respecting the person’s pronouns. I don’t want people using they/them on me because it’s “too hard” to remember she/her, or keep forgetting I’m a girl because of my voice. No compromise, just respect people’s fucking pronouns.
You seem very angry, across all your interactions here in this thread and around your experiences here. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot to be frustrated about in life. I’m not telling you to leave. That’s not my place. But I think you might find a happier experience with a bit of a break, and perhaps heavier curation of who you speak with, and where you hang out. Good luck.
You bet I’m fucking angry, if you knew what it was like to be trans you wouldn’t be saying it so casually. I can’t just stop being angry or stop being scared. I’m literally living in a world that hates and rejects me for who I am, and I’m forced to listen to apologia from assholes who just can’t accept the fact that I’m a fucking girl.
