I set up a 4-day trip years ago and my SO requested the time off. Denied. Changed the reservation, paid a fee and again denied. In fact, every weekend in June through August was denied due to “seniority” and other employees taking their vacations.
I changed the reservation again (and paid another fee) and told my SO the dates they’ll be sick.
We called early in the morning on the way to a great trip. It felt great. FAFO
When I take vacation, I always phrase it as “I am taking vacation from X to Y”. Requesting time off for vacation you’re owed is such a scam to allow people with little power feel like they can control you.
Yeah, I had a manager try to pull “You’ll need to find coverage for the day.” I’ll ask around, but that kind of sounds like your job. Everybody said no to me, so it’s going to be even harder for you. Best of luck!
Yeah that’s explicitly a people-task, which is supposed to be the whole point of managers
I had a manager try that with me back in the day when I was one of the more reliable people at my job. They told me that if I didn’t find coverage I might not have a job when I come back.
They didn’t appreciate me calling their bluff and saying that I’ll be sure to give them a call when I get back to see if I still have my job.
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Yup, this is how I do it. Had ONE manager try the whole “we actually NEED you to come in, we don’t have enough coverage” thing the day I was scheduled to start my vacation, so I sent them a picture from the window of the plane I was on.
It entirely depends on the particular workplace and what is involved, but either way a decent manager should work with you.
“John, Sarah, and James have already asked for that time off, and we have to have someone in the shop. Would you be able to change to this time to this time?” And you never, ever, ever call someone in when they are on PTO. If you, as a manager, okayed it, it’s on you if there’s not enough coverage for whatever reason.
In fairness, I work in Search and Rescue, so operations like mine and other emergency-related workplaces can’t just be like “Oh well, I guess we won’t have coverage that day, Joe wanted to go hunting.” If you work in an office and your work literal lives aren’t depending on you and others being there, then managers should work around it as best they can.
You may work in Search and Rescue but that doesn’t mean they can steal from your paycheck. In workplaces that give you a set amount of time off, that time off is treated like money you are owed. If you are fired or quit, they have to pay you out.
They literally owe you the time off. You earned it. If they don’t let you take it when you need it, it’s like they’re not paying you for work you already did. Would you accept that? I’m guessing no amount of guilting (“it’s Search and Rescue!”) would convince you to give them back your paycheck.
It’s their fault if they don’t hire enough people for you to take a vacation. Not yours. You have to be rested in order to do all the tough aspects of your job, or people could die. Think of it that way.
If your workplace is insane they will still deny you. But yes.
That’s how I approve time off. I realize people have dependents and school vacations and shit, so - if it even comes to that - I’ll ask if they can move it. But I see their ‘request’ more as a notice that they’ll be away, because they can always be ‘sick’. So I’m trying to preserve the trusting relationship instead.
Because honestly, the world will keep turning even if we miss that arbitrary deadline by two weeks. Or six months.
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Your partner’s employer has woefully insufficient staffing levels if they can’t tolerate their absence
That sounds like you’re not being a team player. It is absolutely vital that we maintain a skeleton crew because your manager’s bonus is dependent on cutting payroll to the point of nonfunctionality.
Yep. Half my vacation is just calling in sick because of reluctance to let me use my earned PTO.
They don’t give us enough vacation time anyways, everyone should be maxing their sick days too. Assuming you’re not someone prone to actually getting sick.
So, in my country (I believe it’s the same in the rest of the EU), we have fixed amount of PTO days every year (the amount depends on your contract, but, like pay, it cannot be below 4 weeks), and you HAVE TO USE THEM.
Some people try to build up PTO reserves for whatever reason, and usually their employers have to force them to take time off.
Fuck all financial officers ? Is that what FAFO means?
Close.
Fuck Around and Find Out.
Aw fuck I knew that, but never seen it used as an acronym. Hahahah thanks
Why are we discussing a screenshot of a title and not the article?
Why did OP take the effort to take a screenshot of a title, upload it then post this instead of linking to the article?
Millennials Are “Quietly Screenshotting” Headlines Instead Of Linking To Articles: “Probably Something To Do With Avocado Toast” expert warns.
Workers who receive 11 to 15 days of PTO each year are more likely to use up their days, Rodney says, but there’s a significant drop-off once people get 16 or more days.
And here I am, thinking my 30 days are too little.
My friend has unlimited PTO. He’s not even shamed for using it.
I’m envious.
Typically, people take fewer days off when “unlimited”, as they don’t feel they are owed any particular amount.
Also, in the US, employers have to pay departing employees for any unused PTO. If the PTO is “unlimited,” there’s (perhaps counterintuitively) nothing to reimburse.
Wow, I hadn’t even considered this. Here I was jealous.
Honestly, having had both paid out PTO and unlimited, I’ll take unlimited. It sounds like you’re getting fucked by not getting your PTO paid out, but you also aren’t incentivized to hold onto your PTO on the off chance you get paid out if you leave. I’ve found my mental health to be better now that I’m actively taking my leave instead of rationing it since I can just take it without wondering if I’m going to have to take an unpaid day late in the year.
If your employer is halfway decent, sure. Unfortunately some (like mine) will start denying pto requests once you hit 2 weeks. So then you say “fine, I’ll take it unpaid” and they say “that’s not an option.” The fuck it is…
You and I have been in very similar positions.
That’s only true in California. Accrued PTO does not have to be paid out, nor rolled into the next year. Some employers will pay it out but it’s not a law. Except in California.
Fair! I suppose find myself with sooo much excess vacation time since WFH means I don’t have to take “me” days to recharge like I did when I had to go into a horrible open office every day.
I’m technically offered 10 days. I’m lucky if I use 6 or 7…
Is it because they wouldn’t be approved? If I have leftovers near the end of the year I just take a few Fridays off, giving myself some long weekends
No, I think my supervisor would approve as many days as I want as long as I also get all of my work done. There’s always just too much work to do, it seems.
But that’s not your problem. If you cannot handle the work assigned to you, you are overworked and that’s the fault of your employer. I think what millennials and zoomers are doing is just not falling for the bullshit we’ve been living with for so long.
I think this bullshit is more prevalent today than in the past. Companies found more loopholes to go around (for example unlimited vacations[1]), the worker protections aren’t enforced as strictly.
I believe this phenomenon is likely US specific.
[1] unlimited vacations look great on paper, but with them the company no longer needs to track of 2 weeks of vacations, so they no longer need to pay them when you leave the company and not used them and also doesn’t have to force you to use it. The peer pressure makes you unlikely to take more anyway to not look like a slacker.
There will always be more work to be done. You can work until your dying day and there will still be more. Make your life worth living.
There’s always just too much work to do, it seems.
I remember reading a quote from someone that said something along the lines of “No one on their deathbed ever says ‘I wish I’d spent more time at the office’”.
God, same. But please realise that it’s not your fault if you have more work than can be done. Take the time off to refresh. Both your mental health and your work performance will be the better for it.
I’ve recently got in the habit of scheduling all of my time off for the year in one go. Sure sometimes I regret it, because I’m right in the middle of something when time off comes, but ah well
The shareholders:
o7
the beauty of having time off is not having to give a fuck about boss’ problems.
Consider taking alternate Mondays and Fridays, same 4 day week, but a 4 day weekend every other week.
So wait, those 10 days are just the maximum limit and not the minimum limit?
They are.
Use it or lose it.
Maybe you can buy more days off through the benefits system?
I can, and I do most years.
👍
One of my biggest social media pet peeves. A screenshot of a headline is a useless post. They either took the screenshot and chose to not include the link or - more likely - they copied it from some Instagram page
It denies everyone the article, it’s not searchable, and it’s inaccessible for people using things like screen readers. People who screenshot text deserve a special place in hell.
It’s one step above “memes” that are just text. I include Lisa Simpson/Spiderman on stage and similar templates in that category of garbage posts
It was right at the top on ecosia… https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/millennials-are-quiet-vacationing-rather-than-asking-their-boss-for-pto-there-s-a-giant-workaround-culture/ar-BB1mMKWd
My gift to you.
Not the point…and the guy I was replying to posted the link already. My issue is that posting a screenshot without the article means you have to then look it up
Ok. Just trying to save you some time, internet friend.
I’m not sure the goal of an article like this is to be read. Looks like something that was written for the headline only.
But yeah, the article backpedals and blames management for employees not taking PTO.
(And 11 to 15 days of PTO an year is the good example? WTF, US?)
Millennials are “quiet sleeping” at night… Ungrateful fucks.
My manager sat on a leave request of mine for a week. When I inquired about it, he said it wasn’t a good time, but begrudgingly approved it. I understand why people are not asking. I get 12 days off a year. If I can’t have the days I want, what’s the fucking point of leave?
Remember that violent protests were used in Europe to establish our rights. It’s incredibly weird looking to the US from the outside. You have the right to bear arms, specifically to oppose tyranny, yet nobody seems to do so.
TL;DR: American Conservatives have spent millions of dollars since the 70s studying language and ideas and figuring out how to frame every issue from a conservative, pro-capital, pro-business perspective.
Well, you see, back during the 1960’s and 1970’s there was a huge push in the US against war, against white supremacy, against fascism, against the draft, against segregation, and many other things. Many of the people who currently hold US political offices today were either in the universities and colleges when these protests were ongoing, or were already working as staffers for conservative politicians. They saw what was going on and became determined to never let these things happen again. In 1971 when then Supreme Court Justice Lewis F. Powell mailed a confidential memo to his friends in the US Chamber of Commerce titled: “Attack on American Free Enterprise System” and outlined Powell’s concerns re: the youth of the US and the growing sentiments against the Vietnam War. He was worried that our nation’s best and brightest were becoming anti business because of our involvemnt in Vietnam. Powell’s agenda included getting wealthy conservatives to set up professorships, setting up institutes on and off campus where intellectuals would write books from a conservative business perspective, and setting up think tanks. He outlined the whole thing in 1970. They set up the Heritage Foundation in 1973, and the Manhattan Institute after that.
And now, as the New York Times Magazine quoted Paul Weyrich, who started the Heritage Foundation, they have 1,500 conservative radio talk show hosts. They have a huge, very good operation, and they understand their own moral system. They understand what unites conservatives, and they understand how to talk about it, and they are constantly updating their research on how best to express their ideas.
Now, you might be wondering why progressives haven’t done the same thing. There’s a systematic reason for that. You can see it in the way that conservative foundations and progressive foundations work. Conservative foundations give large block grants year after year to their think tanks. They say, ‘Here’s several million dollars, do what you need to do.’ And basically, they build infrastructure, they build TV studios, hire intellectuals, set aside money to buy a lot of books to get them on the best-seller lists, hire research assistants for their intellectuals so they do well on TV, and hire agents to put them on TV. They do all of that. Why? Because the conservative moral system has as its highest value preserving and defending the “strict father” system itself. And that means building infrastructure. As businessmen, they know how to do this very well.
Meanwhile, liberals’ conceptual system of the “nurturant parent” has as its highest value helping individuals who need help. The progressive foundations and donors give their money to a variety of grassroots organizations. They say, ‘We’re giving you $25,000, but don’t waste a penny of it. Make sure it all goes to the cause, don’t use it for administration, communication, infrastructure, or career development.’
Another reason for the lack of liberal response from think tanks in the last few decades is infighting and cultural purity tests: https://theintercept.com/2022/06/13/progressive-organizing-infighting-callout-culture/
That is a good analysis. I think it ignores the obvious components that the conservatives are well funded precicely because conservative dogma is all about protecting the owner class. Wealthy business people are not going to fund efforts to impose progressive taxation, mandatory sick time etc.
Sure there are rich people in the arts who lean liberal at least in public, but they are outnumbered and out-spent by capital owners.
The left will never be able to spend as much on communication so the approach has go be completely different. Using the products of capitalism like social media has been effective. Peer-to-peer organizing is slow but costs little. Tacking pro-worker policies onto the platforms of the otherwise pro-business Democrats as a differentiator has lead to some success.
Reaching the mass media reach of the far right is so difficult to do without the capital backing though. The left really needs to get into the talk radio game. NPR tries but they are inevitably quite centrist.
I think unifying ideology is also much easier a task for conservative thought, because it’s all about “F you, got mine.” And “Those that aren’t us are trying to ruin everything.” And “Eat enough leather and maybe you’ll get rich lol.”
Leftier-leaning stuff has a “unity problem” because it seeks to understand and accommodate the vast spectrum of human experiences and points of view. Not that that’s a bad thing, but it’s certainly much tougher and more complex to pitch, and rally, and galvanize.
Conservatives are really good at being chill and most importantly simple for the most part at an introductory level, so they recruit a lot, and then slowly work their adherents into raging, scared, insecure violence-fantasists.
A good example is with men. Leftists groups have a serious deficiency in speaking to and empathizing with masculine issues, and are shocked when normally moderate, but wayward, men are happy to just be accepted…then radicalized, by hyper-nationalist conspiracy theorists with a fetish for sharp geometric symbolism…
It’s only tyranny if the colored people or the gays do it.
Oh no, we respect the police we’d NEVER!/s yeah. There’s a weird dichotomy in the US.
It’s completely boggling. The other longer reply nailed it perfectly. But yeah, conservatism is a really weird ideal in that regard.
It’s because it’s all “anti big government”, but usually they’re talking about bringing down social safety nets and building up walls.
They’re so obsessed with governmental tyranny (even though they’re religiously huge fans of police and armed forces…huh?), but they’re completely blind to tyranny on smaller levels, on a domestic scale.
So you usually catch them simping for capitalists instead of opposing them.
“Because one day I’ll get to wear the boot! 🤡”
I think they see abuse by bosses, landlords, and the ilk as “paying ones’ dues” or something. They’ll of course have zero compunction about passing on that abuse if they somehow end up in the high-chair.
So basically: "Don’t tread on me!*
*…Unless you’re my boss. I’m happy I’m at least free to choose my own tyrant among an infinite number of other tyrants, and I’ll
dietalk a really big game to make sure everyone is exploited by private interests instead of government ones!"There’s for-the-people groups like Socialist Rifle Association but they’re smaller in comparison.
Heck, gun-fever and the NRA are basically all private marketing schemes to begin with.
People do on occasion, like there were armed leftists that prevented police from raiding encampments in Texas, and at some protests there have been organized armed groups like John Brown Gun Clubs or Socialist Rifle Associations. Several people that argued for more militant resistance to state violence were murdered in 2020, and many times for decades before that, so a lot of people are scared and not organized sufficiently, but there are groups that have been preparing.
People bragging about not taking their PTO days are quite common in the work place. I always like to remind them that it’s a compensation and part of their contract. Then I brag that this month, I didn’t asked to be paid because I’m dedicated worker like them. It makes them look stupid.
And manager being difficult when requesting PTO are horrible. Because it’s their job to manage staffing. They should understand the concepts explained above. But they don’t, they are probably the kind of people bragging about “working a lot”
My last job it was really difficult to use PTO because we were always kept short staffed and there were only like 2 or 3 PTO “slots” a day and less on weekends. During the summer if you didn’t get your request in months ahead it was practically impossible and forget about getting a whole week. One of many reasons I left was dealing with that shit.
I knew a guy who never took vacation. First dude they laid off.
While it’s not the area I ended up working in, I learned in accounting school that the employees who never take vacation are held as highly suspicious. People who are in a position to skim off the top tend to never take days off so nobody gets opportunity to see what they’re doing.
As to me personally, I remember one year taking all the PTO that was due to me and getting shit on in writing at evaluation time for doing so.
The following year I took zero PTO and got shit on in writing at evaluation time for doing so.
I went to management with copies of both evaluations and said, “since you’re gonna shit on me in writing at evaluation time regardless of what I do, you can expect me to take every minute of PTO going forward.”
They were at a loss for words and just found other reasons to shit on me in writing at evaluation time.
I spent five and a half years in that environment.
Never again. Not for any amount of money.
I’ve been with this company long enough for to get 15 vacation days a year and 7 personal days even still I have to compete with 300 some people for those days off and only 2 are allowed on any given day and none are approved in the summer if they weren’t requested a year in advance. I’d be happy to not take all the pto if the company would just pay me out for those days at the end of the year or let them keep rolling over but it’s a use it or lose it situation.
So when we switched over to the unlimited PTO scam, there was an option to get paid out for the PTO you had accrued. Naturally I was like two hours short of the threshold, so at the end of the year, around December fifth or so, I was like, “later bitches! See ya in January!” and there was nothing they could do about it. It was beautiful.
In the US the manager’s job regarding staffing is to continually do more work with less people as much as possible to make the bean counters happy.
I’m a remote worker, and work on a pretty free and respected team. I found out the hard way that our PTO accrual expires at the end of the calendar year and starts from 0 on Jan 1. I haven’t submitted leave requests this year. but i have taken time off that i’ve run by my team.
I would check whether that’s actually legal in your area, if I were you.
If “quiet quitting” was just doing the absolute bare minimum, wtf is “quiet vacationing?” Showing up to work but then spending all day in VR at a virtual beach while at your desk? 🤷🏻♂️
Quiet quitting was doing what you were hired to do, and not taking on stuff beyond your role. I’m guessing that quiet vacationing means you take the breaks that are in your contract, or that you sleep in your free time.
I guess I am kind of a lazy entitled bastard. Wanting to tuck my kids in at bedtime and whatnot.
I figured it was working remotely and traveling wherever you want, working in the morning and vacationing in the evening.
Oooh right, that makes sense. My job has no issues with this actually. If you end up moving somewhere (outside of the Nordics, presumably) they need to be notified for tax and insurance reasons, but if you travel abroad and bring your work with you they genuinely don’t care so long as you can get your job done. Heck it even happens quite often.
I looked it up, it’s when remote workers go on vacations without telling anyone.
If the work is done on time, who gives a fuck.
Middle managers everywhere, being little bitches.
If manager didn’t know then he’s bad or I’m really good.
if a remote worker goes on vacation and no one notices, are they using PTO?
Lol But seriously I consider it an employee benefit.
I still don’t understand how people got “quiet quitting” so twisted, or why. The term came from businesses looking at employee behaviours and discovering leading indicators of quitting. It had nothing to do with working-to-rule, and was entirely about being able to identify that an employee had one foot out the door.
This is a really simple concept, which makes the reappropriation of the term seem purposful.
Taking vacations but not telling your boss
My first thought was’disconnecting’ and going fully offline while you’re on vacation. No emails, no work phone, airplane mode on your personal phone, etc.
Sounds like regular vacation
Man millennials really like to do things quietly
It’s rarely worth an argument. Especially for the early millennials that came up when boomers were still running around everywhere.
I don’t know what the article says they’re doing, but yeah, if there’s a way to do something without having to talk to cranky old people about it, we’re just going to do shit the quiet way.
Why give them the opportunity to turn it into an argument?
Dealing with those boomers is like dealing with toddlers.
I’ve explained this so many times. I grew up in rural Georgia and I’ve been shout and yelled at so many times by some old boomer dude that I’m just immune to it. Would rather just avoid listening to their bullshit at all.
I even do it on here lol.
Like, why would anyone ever waste their time interacting with an asshole?
But holy hell do they take it badly when you ignore them.
early millennials
Personally I prefer Elder Millennial. Makes it sound more dignified and you can never go wrong with an Iliza Schlesinger reference (she coined the term and named a brilliant stand up special after it) 😁
Oregon Trail generation captures it perfectly, but it never really caught on.
The “Oregon Trail generation” is generally known as the Xennials which is people born from 77-83, so it’s not just Elder Millenials. I’m in this group and think Oregon Trail generation is a cooler name, but that’s probably because I played a shitload of Oregon Trail.
Zod has died of dysentery.
Almost every time, except when its cholera :)
Oregon Trail II master race.
I have never heard this but will be using it exclusively to describe my age for the rest of my life.
The neosilent generation lol
🎵 Great grandsons of the silent age 🎵
~The sound of revolution sounds like a whisper~
It sounds like because there’s a shitload of distrust for workplace managers and HR departments, some workers are being very reserved about what they tell their bosses.
If bosses are going to presume you’re lazy for taking breaks and using PTO, it might be better to offer a less triggering explanation.
Very much like if a website refuses to serve Firefox or VPNs, it might be useful to hide your website and VPN use.
My boss after approving my time off: So what you gonna do with your time off?
Me: rest.
Boss: going anywhere?
Me: I’m gonna rest.
Boss: ohh you gotta do something fun.
Me: I am, resting.
I’m not telling you shit you weird fuck, plus you dont pay me enough to go on holiday so imma take advantage of not having to be here by resting my over worked body.
My boss is like, “Okay cool.” I’m glad I have a good boss.
I work retail, my bosses like to think they own us out of work, he does not like it when I tell him I consider myself unemployed when I’m not actively being paid by the company.
I added every normal contact to my white list and put my phone on do not disturb when I’m living my actual life, anyone I actually want to talk to can contact me and I already ignore private numbers or numbers not in my contacts, sonthey can’t try and trick me.
I work my contract and only my contract.
When the boss asks what are your plans your response is “my plans are my own and very important”
Going camping, won’t have phone or internet service. Bye.
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My company bars any equipment from leaving the country.
Lots of road trips to Canada.
He knows I can’t afford that.
I tried this, but was told “take your laptop, we’ll expense the Internet”.
Employee: I’d like to use my PTO
Boss: No
Employee: (goes on vacation anyway)
Boss’s best friend news:
If you can’t handle me being out for a week how are you going to handle me quitting from being overworked from you not being able to handle being out for a week?
When minimum wage workers requesting vacation time 3 months in advance during a non-holiday month get denied, knowing full well that the weekly schedules arent posted until just about the day before they go into effect… Yeah. People are going to do what they need to do. Goodness knows I did everytime that happened. You’d never guess how many times I’ve claimed getting Mono before covid was an option.
The Swedish vacation law (Semesterlag 1977:480) amateurishly translated by me. And I am in no way experienced enough in our labour law to comment on how it looks for those not working full time. The short lesson is to Remember Ådalen, or those that fought, bled and died four our labour rights.
4 § En arbetstagare har rätt till tjugofem semesterdagar varje semesterår […]
An employee have right to twentyfive vacation days per year12 § Om inte annat har avtalats, ska semesterledigheten förläggas så, att arbetstagaren får en ledighetsperiod av minst fyra veckor under juni-augusti[…]
If nothing else have been agreed upon, the vacation is to be scheduled such that the employee get a vacation period of at least four weeks during june -augustUnions work. Labour movements work.
How move Sweden. Am enjunear. Want make industry.
Well, you already speak the language, so that’s a start.
Depending on where you’re from you’ll face different challenges. If you’re an EU/Schengen citizen you can pretty much just mosy on over here. If you have a full-time job and/or enough money, as well as some form of health insurance you’ll be able to get a personnummer quite easily. If you’re outside of the EU things get trickier, but having a job lined up here will make things easier.
There’s also the spousal path, though given our current nazi-xenophobic government I’m expecting a lot of those avenues to get tougher.
Probs because companies have that bullshit ‘unlimited PTO’ that’s often not real
Yeah I hate “unlimited PTO”. If it’s actually unlimited then let me know when the office Christmas party is and I will be off until then, when I will see you for drinks.
It’s weird, I’ve got unlimited PTO and have taken more time in a year than I did overall at any of the jobs I’ve been at, and they’ve been super accommodating with a medical issue I have.
Last year I took over 30 PTO days, I’ve been lucky to get 8-12 days yearly at previous gigs. Unlimited PTO can be amazing if you have decent leadership.
That isn’t “normal” though. Part of the reason that companies like unlimited PTO is that typically workers take less PTO when unlimited is offered.
I had 8 weeks paid per year in my last job, so rolling in to this one with unlimited I pretty much do the same. But for sure I’m a bit of an anomaly. I rarely see others taking time.
That and they don’t have to pay out unused PTO since there technically isn’t any.
Do y’all have any idea how jealous the old angry people are?
They they have any idea how much none of us care? We’re all living in the shite world they created.
My wife and mys manager when we worked at the same place once told each of us separately in out reviews:
You do great, I love that you finish your work early, but the other people in the office dont like that you go home AT 5 (9 hour shift w/ 30m lunch) because they stay an extra 2-4 hours regularly.
Said it to me first, I just told her it sounds like her salary (I was hourly) employees suck at their jobs. She just kinda stares at me (this is the exact bluntness she promoted me to working with her for so…)
When she said it to my wife SHE went off on one about how she used to do those other people’s jobs and that it’s ridiculous that they can’t do it in the same amount of time and would dare demand that she stay extra time just to appease their incompetence
She straight up admitted to us all the 40-60 year olds just didnt like that we could do our jobs and go home because we could type faster than 12 WPM
My wife and mys manager
Why do people do this?
A friend of mine had a job where she worked remotely most of the time. She would never interact with any other of her colleagues unless if she went offline on Slack for too long or didn’t get her work done. She managed to make some pretty nifty Selenium scripts to do the whole thing for her and delayed it to her usual working speed. I’m pretty sure she spent most of her time working there playing OSRS instead and I think she did actually go away on an extended holiday too.
