Nature according to people who use that argument
Well if the ants can do it, why can’t we?(Btw, I’m opposed to caged chicken egg cultivation, and even had my own chicken in the past before I couldn’t anymore for eggs. Now I just pay the premium and researched which were the most ethical eggs in the store available. Happy hens make better eggs anyway. I’m just pointing out we’re not the only ones that raise animals for consumption in nature).
Why would what ants do have relevancy to what we should do?
It tracks the logic of the meme then counterpoint, this is the counterpoint to the counterpoint.
I invented a fictional society for stories in which you are allowed to buy and consume meat, but only if you have a “carnivore’s medallion”. The only way to obtain one is to have witnesses observe you personally slaughter a living being (eg, a chicken) with no assistance.
Ideologically, seems like a good way to put friction on meat obsessions and get people to think about it.
Isn’t this just hunting?
Well, hunting involves the whole orange vests, ensuring legal permission, stalking an animal, etc. The idea would be if this world has hunters, any of them certified as a witness can get their colleagues a medallion without going the whole chicken route.
But obviously, most people who eat meat today don’t hunt. So they would need to go through the experience of taking life once before reaping the benefit.
I like this idea. We’re raising chickens and probably rabbits this spring. If you’re going to eat meat, you should face the reality of the life you are consuming.
Sounds interesting.
If they went to live naked in the woods and used their apex predator canines to tear out a deer’s jugular, I’m not judging.
Veganism isn’t about respect for nature. It is a philosophy and way of living against animal cruelty and exploitation.
Congratulations on a legit shitpost.
Whoosh.
E: For those downvoting, remember this is a shitpost and some level of inaccuracy is almost required. It’s the shit part of the post. Like, c’mon guys…
Vegans have to deal with arguments like this but unironically on the daily. That hits a nerve, wether it’s meant as a shitpost or not. Don’t take it personally.
Mayhaps it is the vegans who need to avoid taking things personally
It can be both
Yeah, it’s totally unreasonable to get tired of hearing the same shitty comments and warmed over “jokes” every day.
And it gotten so bad, that some people will accuse you being a vegan if you’re not doing keto/carnivore diet, and thus an extremely militant and unpleasant one.
I wonder how people arguing with them know they are vegans… 🤔
Ooh I know that one! They are in a social situation that involves food and the vegan politely declines an animal product. Then they make an anti vegan joke and the vegan politely disagrees. Have been there many times.
Really? Because I have seen quite a few times vegan claiming that eating meat is a “murder” when people were trying to enjoy their steaks.
Here on Lemmy one idiot even claimed that cutting sheep wool or something similar is a sexual assault
You know mate you get people with extreme opinions in all walks of life.
No doubt about it, but I am yet to see someone who eats meat calling for vegans to be forcibly fed meat - and I have seen vegans saying that eating meat should be forbidden.
Have you ever tried to not eat in front of people ever? Turns out it’s pretty hard to do. Sometimes, if you’re nice to people, you get invited to go out to eat to a place. Often those places have no vegan options, and you have to explain why you can’t eat there so people don’t just think you’re blowing them off constantly. We don’t just go around telling everyone we’re vegan like all the hate memes like to say.
Most vegans I’ve met, myself included, don’t pick fights with people about veganism. We just live by example. It’d be cool if more people went vegan, but arguing with people about doing it doesn’t help. Doing that is like trying to push religion on people or make people experience empathy. It isn’t easy to go vegan (getting easier at least). Food is tied to a lot of people’s culture who have a hard time relearning how to cook/eat and make generational recipes or comfort foods they’ve always eaten.
Tell them to find a vegan inclusive place next time and go anyway, the animal is already dead and being a patron this one time to satisfy a friend and have a good time is fine
By putting a post on the interwebs making fun of them and waiting for them to arrive? Not what you are implying, but also a quite effective method.
Lmao. Look at OPs comments. They actually believe this shit. Based on all the other shitposts they post here and all throughout lemmy, they probably picked it up on reddit or some other trash site, thought it was funny, and came here to share.
This is for real shit post
does this look natural to u?
I can side with the vegans that the meat industry needs to be clamped down on hard
But eating meat in of itself is not wrong, that is what is natural
There are plenty of things that are ‘natural’ that are wrong to do, why is eating meat any different?
Homosexuality has been observed among a great many species, particularly birds and mammals.
What where we talking about again?
Killing and eating your children has been observed among a great many species, particularly reptiles and mammals.
What where we talking about again?
Eh, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t at one point or that it can’t be part of our reproductive strategy in the future. I’d even say that murder and cannibalism are very normal aspects of our species.
That’s a personal choice that people are allowed to make for themselves.
Are the animals also allowed a choice in the matter?
That misses the question a bit, no? Everything that is wrong to do is a personal choice. It’s not relevant to whether or not it should be done
Not really, some things are objectively bad and wrong and other things are merely subjective.
The problem we’re having here are people who hold their subjective beliefs very strongly are then adamant that it makes said beliefs objective, just because they believe them.
Killing someone who’s done nothing to you and doesn’t want to die is pretty objectively bad.
Yes, killing other people is objectively bad. Thank you for agreeing with me.
Could you tell me how you measured that badness and how I can repeat the experiment?
What is the ‘objective’ source of your morality?
There is none. It’s just my view based on how people see things. You’re allowed to not agree, it doesn’t have to be combative.
even things like killing being bad is not objective in my opinion, it just simply stems from our minds and societies’ process of growth through natural selection.
We believe that killing is bad only because we share the majority of their DNA and we are close genetically to what we’re killing. It was evolutionarily incentivised to not kill those that are genetically close, as they and we share common ancestors from which such thoughts evolved.
this is imo why we value humans more than other animals, animals more than vegetables and relatives over strangers. Friends being valued more than strangers make sense as well, as they share ideas in the place of the shared genome.
in a wider scope none of this matters anyway, our lives and deaths are irrelevant to the universe and our lives don’t actually matter outside what our minds tell us.
Yes, but most people in the west don’t have the option to eat meat that are not from the meat industry.
That is exactly why veganism is attractive in the west.
Exactly as a vegan ex explained it to me.
Yo this seems to be a bad take
I think something that defines humanity is that we really try not to follow the “rules of nature”, ie. the rule of the stronger over the weaker
Yeah, I wash shocked to find out that Squirrels hunted and ate smaller mice when they felt the urge.
Almost all herbivores are opportunistic carnivores. Cows are known to eat rats found in the hay. Horses sometimes gobble down a chick if they feel like it.
All these strict rules people believe about biology were prescribed by scholars of old who believed in a perfect creation where everything had its place, but reality is very messy.
Carnivores, not cannibals lol
Thanks 😅
All cannibals are carnivores but not all carnivores are cannibals.
99% of vegans dont say eating meat in itself is wrong and this bullshit narrative needs to stop
Edit: I wrote “in itself” to make it especially clear, but it seems people are skipping that part. The act of eating meat can not be evil, carnivorous animals do it for survival. The context is always what matters.
You haven’t been here long, have you?
Youre saying vegans want to stop animals from eating other animals? I dont think so.
🤣 go to the Lemmy vegan community and say that. I’m sure you’ll easily get 99 upvotes and only a single downvote
What ever horror humanity has done, we are still holding the beer of invertebrates.
And yet nature’s is is not a justification for aught. The fruit of the tree of wisdom (mythically) gave us empathy that we may live in harmony with neighbors, and in the late game, we have learned the imperative to see value in the fallow wilds.
A century ago, a vegan diet for humans as extremely difficult, possibly impossible. And to quote Saruman the forests will burn in the fires of industry! And they have.
We are not a vegan culture today because the food industry focuses on sales and profits, not on nutrition and health.
Though to be fair our massive land-hungry industrial farms will affect the biomes around them regardless of whether we grow plants or ranch livestock. Veganism is part of a solution towards a more harmonious civilization, but misses several pieces.
Pretty horrifying if you let yourself think of it.
I’ll take “things actual vegans never say” for $500!
it’s not even a contradiction. One can respect something and not emulate it.
As much as I admire the morality and overall health of vegetarian/vegan folks, I would also super respect anyone who got all their protein by monstering whole live mice that they caught by hand.
I’d support a “you can eat all the meat you can catch and kill with your bare hands” diet.
Our ancestors have been using sharp sticks, heavy sticks, and sharp rocks since they could walk upright, so I’d support that, too.
I’m vegetarian and my partner is vegan but neither of us are strictly against the “hunter and gatherer” approach.
Where I live traditional hunting is almost nonexistent, but fishing and other ocean-based “hunting” (crabs, crays, oysters etc) is super popular. I’ve considered taking up spearfishing as it’s more intentional than throwing in a hook and dragging up whatever, and requires more (in my opinion) skill and nerve to pull off successfully. But even if I actually caught something the thought of cleaning it puts me off and I’d more than likely ruin it and waste a life for nothing.
No issues with anyone that can fairly catch and prepare their own meat for themselves, but I’ll stick to my tofu and seitan for now.
Hell yeah
Great, now I have to replace all my beef with veal.
Vegans and vegetarians are not often more healthy than meat eaters. In fact a lot of them subsist mostly on junk food and ultra processed shit.
I dunno about their morals. For me it depends on whether they are opposed to meat because they think it’s murder (absurd notion: see op) or because they opposed the treatment of living animals in industrial meat farms, which is the real issue.
There is not only a treatment problem, but also that livestock eats a lot of calories that could be used elsewhere
However you gotta justify your choices I guess.
I’m a vegetarian and also native. Humans have this weird hubris where they think they’re not part of the natural world. Humans are designed to be omnivores, meat jumpstarted our evolution. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with eating meat, but what’s wrong is the ease and disregard for meat and the animals that provide it through the factory farming industry.
But at the end of the day there’s no more wrong with a person eating meat, than with that Hawk eating a mouse. We’re part of the circle. We just have the privilege to live in a time and place where not eating meat is a realistic choice
Not a vegan, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard a vegan say that. We’ve all watched nature shows. Rationale is usually a little bit deeper. Overconsumption, abuse of animals in meat/dairy industries, responsibility of humans to aim for a higher level of morality than animals, etc. Sure some go overboard, but I wouldn’t underestimate the complexity of the thinking behind it.
There are too many people for us all to hunt our own meat, and the same amount of farmland that can feed x amount of livestock can feed significantly more people than the livestock would.
Not all crops are created equal.
Crops intended for livestock are way easier to farm, require less water, less pesticides, less fertilizer, and less taking care of.
Many times crops intended for livestock are a necessary part of rotatory crops. As they tend to be easier on the land.
Farming is not as easy as “you can grow anything in any given land”.
Falcons didn’t fuck up by inventing tofu, so they have an excuse. We don’t.
Except its scientifically proven, that our possibility tonevolve was Not from Hunting, but agricultural Farming. But great Shitpost
Modern humans are around 300.000 years old … we’ve only been farming for 10.000 years. Doesn’t quite add up.
No it wasn’t.
Otherwise humans wouldn’t have been smart enough to figure out farming in the first place.
Also humans were already humans when farming was invented. We’re not pokemon.
the first crop was rare candy and evolution stones
Don’t fucking tell me what I can and can not be!
With the power of friendship I will finally become a Glurak (also screw English Pokémon names)
It was fire ya dingus.
Fire allowed us to cook our food, making us die less from pathogens and bacteria AND making more food digestible. ESPECIALLY meat.
Agriculture was what provided our exponential expansion.
That’s not how evolution works. Evolution doesn’t have a plan, it doesn’t wait, or speed up. Evolution just happens and our human ancestors would have continued to evolve regardless of agriculture. The path that evolution takes could have been very different but it would have happened. The human species is still evolving and will continue to do so until it’s extinction.
Hawks eat meat cause they have to. WE eat meat cause it’s delicious. The Hawks dies if there are too many Hawks in one feeding ground. The human fucks up his and everyone elses Habitat for centurys cause he’s too lazy to change.
A balanced diet with some meat along with fruits/veg/nuts is the most healthy for most people.
Vegans can downvote me until the end of time but that doesn’t make it less true.
Some people just don’t feel comfortable killing and eating animals. Let people live their own lives.
Anyways, less people eating animal products leads to lower prices for those who do (you).
Temporarily lower prices. A large consumer base is needed to support the infrastructure that provides meat food products. More people eating more meat will normally produce lower prices in the long-term.
It may be made up for in quality though, having a smaller consumer base may result in ensuring higher quality meat on average. Perhaps even a situation where lab grown meat is used for things like hamburgers or chicken nuggets.
It’s way easier for me to have a vegetarian diet when I’m eating at home. At restaurants the vegetarian options almost always contain the one thing I’m allergic to, so I often have no choice but to eat meat when I go out.
