re: this article.
The title is a joke. āFree, but you have to make an EGS accountā is a bit too rich for me.
Call me crazy, but I donāt like it when somebody tries to hold me hostage and force me to do things their wayā¦
Epic: Itās not right that if you want a game on your smart phone you have to go through Apple or Google!
Also Epic: if you want this game you have to go through US!
Tbf, devs donāt have to, and in fact Epic will pay them to be exclusive, unlike Apple who makes devs pay for it and gives no choice.
Though itās still annoying that Epic does that, from a consumer standpoint. I canāt play any Epic-exclusive games because their CEO has a personal vendetta against my platform (Linux), so their company can die for all I care.
Fair, but it shows that Epic only cares about Developers (like themselves) and not Consumers (their customers).
āItās not fair to force Devs to use a specific service. Itās perfectly fine to force users to use a specific service.ā
Better than Apple in 1/2 ways at least ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
Oh sure, I do want Epic to win that fight for sure. I just also want EGS to fail.
I like me some freebies, but I could use some friendly recommendations not in the FPS or MOBA category. Outside those two genres, it seems to be just idle clickers and unbalanced pay-to-win RPGs. The reviews on these two remaining categories are typically not very good.
Not on Steam? No direct release? Steam released, but with a bunch of bolt on EULAs/Denuvo/3rd party launchers?
The seas will provide.
i donāt get the āsteam good, other launchers badā. itās still a launcher and drmā¦
Ever other platform is just ass. I have played games on Epic, Battlenet, Ubisoft and the EA launcher but they all barely have basic functionality. Meanwhile steam has:
- good UI (store & settings)
- no forced ads
- reviews
- discussions
- workshop
- player stats
- a lot more settlings / options
Steam seems to be the only one that actually puts any effort in providing a good user experience. Itās more than just a store / launcher and noone else is even trying to compete.
Donāt forget non-profitable free-to-use features such as:
- Steam Link
- Cloud storage for saves and screenshots
- Over the internet couch co-op (I donāt remember the name.
And thereās probably more that Iām forgetting. These things cost Valve money to make and maintain. Only a small portion of users actually use these features and yet itās not locked behind some subscription or whatever and instead can be used by all users of the platform.
They cost money to make, but the only one of those that costs them a significant chunk to maintain is cloud saves. As far as I can tell their streaming solution is strictly peer-to-peer, in the vein of Moonlight or Parsec.
And all of those are definitely profitable for Steam viaā¦ well, look at this thread. Their technological advantage on the client feature set is worth billions to them. They are in the process of spinning it off into a separate hardware platform and OS. Thatās Microsoft money they stand to make, on top of all the Microsoft money they are already making.
I mean, those are cool, donāt get me wrong, they have by far the best feature set in the PC market, and arguably in all of gamingā¦ but itās not a gift, itās either feature parity with competitors or investment in their market position.
Theres also steamvr link to make metaās quest headsets better and also all the steam for linux stuff like proton and gamescope
What do you mean āno forced adsā? It throws up a separate window with store sales every launch?
You can turn that off.
https://majorgeeks.com/content/page/disable_steam_popups_notifications.html
You can turn that off, you know
You can turn that off in Windows as well, yet people still complained. And with good right.
Still think itās a bit different, steam is essentially a store so Iām expecting to see a promotional banner when I walk in. Windows is a āpaidā product that shows you more ads on something you already āownā.
Those are promotions, really. Not advertisements. Steam is showing me relevant video games that are available, not a sale on Coca-Cola.
Of fucking course Steam isnāt advertising soda, they sell games. Itās still an advertisementā¦ just because itās relevant to the platform youāre on doesnāt mean itās not an advertisement.
Turn it off in the settings if it annoys youā¦
I did turn it off. That doesnāt really have anything to do with my comment though.
Exactly, I actually go thru this page every so often, just wish it would show me VR titles only, donāt care/have the drive to play flat games anymore. It would be annoying if it were ads for stuff not on steam, promote away steam
I fail to see the distinction. If I want to just play a game, itās still getting in my way.
Turn it off then and quit complaining about something so insignificant.
Up until this thread, I had tried several times to find out how to disable it. That setting name is obviously obfuscating itself.
I am screaming at the reality distortion field. I can feel my molecules being pulled into a million parallel realities just reading this.
Then stop reading. Some of you people are really aggravating.
Who people? Reality people?
These conversations are always so weird. People are here going āyeah, Steam is the best client, but maybe itās fine to have some competition on PC storefrontsā and this army of borderline religious devotees just crawls from under the ground to tell you how when Steam does ads theyāre not ads, theyāre the Good Word of Gaben bestowed upon us.
I donāt even like the Epic store.
I think there is a toggle for this in the UI settings.
no other platform gives as much of a shit as valve does about linux gaming. proton made pretty much every windows game in my library Just Workā¢ (and no, just wine still isnāt enough), meanwhile tim sweeney is actively hostile to linux as a platform.
Steamās DRM is not mandatory to release a game on Steam. Its there in fact to provide a necessary lesser evil than to encourage every developer/publisher to produce their own. They still unfortunately do, which Steam at least warns customers about, but them providing their own minimal DRM is a good thing, given the context.
(That said, I still respect gog)
Valve does not discourage third party DRM at all. I wanna say there are dev FAQs where they actively encourage it, in fact. Let me look for the quoteā¦
ā¦Here we go. They straight up point out that their DRM isnāt enough and recommend making GaaS games and leaning into their platform features to make pirate copies and non-DRMd copies not work or work worse. And they support third party DRM explicitly.
I donāt see how this is consistent with discouraging DRM use. People project a lot on the go-to defenses for this particular argument, and itās weird.
The Steam DRM wrapper by itself is not an anti-piracy solution. The Steam DRM wrapper protects against extremely casual piracy (i.e. copying all game files to another computer) and has some obfuscation, but it is easily removed by a motivated attacker.
We suggest enhancing the value of legitimate copies of your game by using Steamworks features which wonāt work on non-legitimate copies (e.g. online multiplayer, achievements, leaderboards, trading cards, etc.).
The Steam wrapper can and should be used in combination with other DRM solutions. To do so, apply the Steam wrapper in compatibility mode first before applying any other DRM. Apply it first so that it does not interfere with the DRM solution. Compatibility mode will disable DRM capabilities of the wrapper.
The DRM is optional for use by the devs. Rimworld is one game I know doesnāt use it, you can just zip the entire thing up and put it somewhere else and itāll run fine. Itās still a launcher. But the only better alternative to a launcher is plain installers to download and hold onto like GOG provides as an alternative to its Galaxy launcher.
Steam is good mostly because the competition is unbelievably incompetent. I cannot see a single good reason for EGS to be a fucking Unreal app, for starters, and a couple of reasons that it shouldnāt (the store is just web pages, the text rendering sometimes gets blurry, it uses too many computer resources to run).
Even GOG, which I always shill for, has some pretty dumb faults, like how it lists different editions of the same game, like a base/deluxe/platinum, as completely different: if you own the platinum version, you might still see the base game on the store page without the āOwnedā sticker; more than once I added a game to the cart only to double check and realize that I already owned it. This also happens to games that GOG sells in bundles.
To be fair, āit just worksā and they havenāt tried to screw us over, which is almost unprecedented.
Man, I want whatever MiB forget beam they have at Valve. I remember plenty of ātrying to screw us overā, starting with rolling out Steam in the first place.
Maybe you had to be there before all the Gaben memes and the digital distribution.
The thing is, the OPās meme is right, all these arguments always devolve into bashing Valve in a reactionary mannerā¦ but man, itās because the cultish memory holing gets so weird that itās not about whether Epic is successful or good software or about any other store. Whether you want to or not you end up reality checking the Good Guy Valve myth.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticise Valve. I still strongly disagree with being forced to update a game before I can launch it. Greenlight and Steam Direct were/are consistently a pit of scum and shovelware. I still havenāt forgotten their attempt together with Bethesda to introduce paid mods to the Workshop. I wasnāt around when Steam itself was introduced (we still traded game CDs on the playground at the time), but I understand it was a horrid service and software. Then thereās the matter of actual gambling in Counter-Strike and TF2 and the massive secondary market attached to them that Valve refuse to acknowledge.
Nothingās ever only one way or the opposite, though. Thereās always a spectrum of what a customer is willing to put up with, weighed against what a customer gains by putting up with a companyās behaviour. For putting up with Valveās bullshit, as a gamer, I get a reliable service, a massive library of games, unparalleled download speed, free cloud storage for saves and settings, content management, community integration, and benefits too numerous to recount. As a Linux gamer, I get all of their work on Proton, on upstream Wine, Gamescope, DXVK and VKD3D, many of which I use even outside gaming, for free.
When Steamās quasi-monopoly was threatened by the EGS, Valve did not try to lock down developers. The only policy change they enacted was requiring games that are advertised on Steam Steam to actually launch on Steam, after people who preordered Metro Exodus were shafted, in order not to become an advertisement platform for their competition. Then they released publicity videos about the Steam Deck that appealed to Linux enthusiasts, handheld gamers, and right-to-repair advocates. Even as a āDRM platformā, theyāve captured that niche.
Iāve said many times that success is not illegal. I was excited and hopeful when I heard that Steam was getting a competitor with a company backing it that had a chance of challenging the status quo. Epic and the EGS were given the best opportunity anyone was ever going to get and they fumbled it. They alienated their potential customerbase when they poached Metro Exodus and early third-party-exclusive titles, showed that they did not have a solid foundation when Borderlands 3 was launched without the ability to preload, gave us reason to question their security practices when a data scraper was found in the installed application, and drew further criticism when they would only accept indie titles if they were made EGS-exclusive while allowing Cyberpunk 2077 to launch on multiple platforms. Since then, itās become a haven for AI and NFT shovelware that Valve have rejected based on legal/moral issues.
I will acknowledge that some good came of their actions. Apple was forced to remove their anti-competitive policy that prevented developers from placing links and buttons that directed users to other payment processors. Still, it is the fruit of the poisonous tree: they intentionally broke ToS and had an eighty-page lawsuit and an animated short film prepared, acting like they were the innocent āfor the playersā party set upon by the evil corporations, rallying children as their uncritical lynch mob.
In conclusion, Valve has done things I dislike, but I have reason to conditionally accept and tolerate them; as I have reason to distrust and dislike Epic and the EGS. My choice whenever possible, though, is GOG, which I didnāt mention as it was not part of the conversation and is mostly doing its own thing.
I rambled too much, and Iām too lazy to proofread, so I hope I make some kind of sense.
See, thatās a very even keeled summary.
And you still missed the fact that yes, it turns out Valve was aggressively locking down developers by forbidding other platforms from competing on price by holding store discoverability hostage. Which may have been illegal, we still have to wait on that particular class action to resolve. And that regulators had to force them to hand out refunds after a lot of the āevilā competition was already doing it.
Look, the fact is these are massive corporations fighting for who gets to milk money from gamers. I have zero need to root for either Fortnite guy or Digital Distribution Inventor Monopoly Haver guy. Steam is undeniably the better software by a mile, but considering their margins I donāt think itās unreasonable for people to ask them not to do the shitty things they do (and they do do shitty things, as you point out).
I do root for GoG, but let me be perfectly honest here, itās because theyāre the only semi-viable 100% DRM-free option. And even then, you can tell they absolutely hate that they are grandfathered into that branding and increasingly unable to compete because of it. I will have no need to root for Cyberpunk guys the moment they cave and/or are forced to drop that policy.
Itās not about āmy billionaire is better than your billionaireā. Epic could gain complete supremacy overnight and my position wouldnāt change.
Which may have been illegal, we still have to wait on that particular class action to resolve.
Can you give me a case number or some other reference? I know of only one class action lawsuit, but that one is concerning the resale of Steam activation codes.
Nah, itās weird how many people missed that during discovery in that one (the one everybody was saying was irrelevant and vacuous and only about code resellers) emails came out where Steam reps were outright telling devs that either they kept price parity on Steam or they wouldnāt get store placement. Not just resellers, but for Humble and UPlay as well.
Itās nuts how long it took me to find the quotes and documents, by the way. Itās all about how few employees Valve has and that one time Tim Sweeny called them assholes in an email for having a 30% cut and they shared it internally with āAre you mad, bro?ā. Barely any specific coverage about the fact thatā¦ yeah, Steam will pressure you to never have the game cheaper anywhere else, resale keys or not.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bwajZMNAof74mSNRMcTAVlF8m0fplHkA/view
For the record, my position WOULD change if Epic gained total dominance because I want the gaming market to be competitive. Any of these people having a monopoly is a bad thing in my book, so in our reality thatād be Steam.
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I mean, most people would say free games are pretty consumer-friendly, but whatever, these goalposts have been moving for ages.
Steam was threatening game devs with pulling them from the store if they undercut Steam prices just last year (see above). They restated that you donāt own your games and that you canāt transfer them to anybody on your death just last year. They rolled out additional revenue share improvements for big publishers in 2018, keeping the worse conditions for smaller games. I personally saw a Steam rep tell a roomful of indie devs that they should be translating their games to Chinese out of pocket or risk not getting as prominent store positioning well within this decade. Steam also keeps selling loot boxes today, which Iāve always been less concerned about, but most people seem to think is a bad thing. Thatās extra funny in this context because Epic specifically was shamed into removing them from their games a while ago and severely punished for what was seen as selling those to kids just as Steam was keeping that whole thing in place for CS2. Like I said, would kill for the MiB ray Gaben invented.
Look, Iām not here to say that Valve is a dark empire bent on world domination, but they are a money-printing machine privately owned by a billionaire that sure would like to keep growing his yatch collection. I think Valve has been more successful than anybody else at making their platform software and a lot of their money comes from cutting cost via automation and squeezing captive devs while focusing hard on their user-facing feature set. On the big picture, though (no pun intended) I donāt see that much air between them and any other large publisher or first party platform holder.
Most games on steam have no drm. Once youāve installed them, you can do whatever you want with them. Steam isnāt adding drm to everything. The number one best thing about steam is the social integration, the pure simplicity of being able to right click on a friend and hit join game to be able to play with them is amazing. Basically, steam makes things simpler, and other ālaunchersā are simply ad platforms forced in as a layer between you clicking play and the game opening.
i honestly believe the biggest part to this is steam having been around for a long time, and being a kind of the default video game store. people dont like being forced to get another launcher for a game, so whenever a game isnt on steam, they get mad at the whichever launcher its on.
i dont think there is very much critical thinking about drm, expoitative store platforms and capitalism going on.
I think if a Dev decided to only release their game on GoG because they prefer GoGs business practices there wouldnāt be a lot of complaints about it.
That is extremely disingenuous. It wouldnāt be commercially viable to do that (as seen byā¦ you know, CDPR not even doing that). The way to make that commercially viable would be to get paid for an exclusivity deal by GOGā¦ at which point Iām pretty sure people would, in fact, complain.
would be to get paid for an exclusivity deal by GOGā¦ at which point Iām pretty sure people would, in fact, complain.
Yes, Iām sure they would. Note how in your scenario here people arenāt complaining about it but being on Steam, they are complaining about the exclusivity deal.
Man, itās really hard to say this without sounding condescending, so let me say I absolutely am not trying to be, but I donāt really understand what youāre trying to say here. I think something got cut in that sentence somewhere.
I am agreeing with you that if someone signed and exclusivity deal with GoG people would complain.
I am pointing out that in order to get people to complain (in this hypothetical scenario) about something only being available on GoG, we had to introduce an exclusivity deal.
So people arenāt complaining about it not being on Steam, they are complaining about exclusivity deals.
G*mers are Stockholmed crazy style.
Fun fact:
The origin of the term āStockholm Syndromeā comes from a hostage situation in which the police did not seem to care about the well being of the hostages and were actively taking actions that were dangerous to them, while the hostage takers started taking actions to protect the hostages from police.
Instead of running the story āpolice fucked upā news outlets exaggerated the behaviour of hostages that were just trying to survive.
Seeing the console wars play out on the basis of which DRM platform you want to put in your PC is wild.
Itās like, diversityā¦ but not.
Fanbois of a different flavor but with the lovely twist where none of them accept they are fanbois.
mmmā¦ delicious fish
Iām not as salty about EGS as a lot of PC gamers seem to be.
ā¦ But god damn is their default client trash.
Thank fuck for Heroic Launcher on Linux (I think it even got a Windows version?)
But honestly, people complain about exclusivity, and seem to not realise (or care?) that certain games would not exist without this kind of funding deal. They are only funded by the platform that pays for their exclusivity. If you want to be mad at something, donāt be mad at the devs, donāt even be mad at Epic, be mad at Capitalism as an institution, which rules that art needs money to exist.
You point out that the game wouldnāt exist without exclusivity but then immediately point out that it totally could exist if the profit motive did not run our economy.
The existence of exclusives is a form of cultural capture by capitalists (As is copyright). I would argue that it would indeed be better if Alan Wake 2 was never made if it meant that exclusives stopped being made entirely, and Alan Wake 2 looks like a game I absolutely want to play.
store simping is really cringe ngl
Itās not simping if telling people to stay out of there is the digital equivalent of telling people to stay out of number 4 reactor hall at Chernobyl.
Is it simping when Steam is just better though? So many useful things that Epic doesnāt have. Especially on the Linux side.
Epic paid them a bunch of money for the exclusivity. Money they needed to produce the game. Remedy needs the money upfront. And Epic takes less of a cut than Steam.
I feel like youāre mad at the wrong people?
The formula goes like this:
- Release the title on first-party platforms.
- Profit until the sales dry up. If potential players havenāt bought the game at that point because of platform-related reasons, they wonāt likely be convinced otherwise.
- Once that happens, release the title on all other platforms.
- Profit more.
Sonyās had great success when they started bringing first-party titles to PC. Square is feeling the squeeze after the disappointing sales of the FFVII remakes. DARQās developer rejected third-party exclusivity and was met with praise and sales exceeding expectations.
The fact is, some people will never consider buying on EGS. Whether their reasons are legitimate or not is irrelevant. It is only by the choice of one
manovergrown man-child that both Epic and Remedy are kept from greater sales and greater profits.Sony releasing games on PC yet region locking them to countries with PSN access is beyond absurd.
Itās almost like they hate money.
If I huff enough copium, I can sometimes convince myself that theyāre just stupid.
Unfortunately, the mandatory PSN requirement probably yields them more profit (through some means) than direct sales would from the non-PSN regions.
Another possibility is something I heard mentioned regarding Nvidia: Japanese and Far-Eastern businesses often favor control over maximized profits, and mandatory PSN might be a way of exercising this control. Just a hypothesis though.
If they want to exercise more control over the gamers who buy their games, they could let more countries sign up for the PSN. At the very least all of the countries in the EU should be able to make an account.
I still have Helldivers 2 in my steam account even though I canāt even look at the steam store for it.
Soooo, they walked it back. https://lemmy.world/post/24882107
Thatās pretty good, I hope they actually keep to this promise though.
Egs does not work on linux. It is just not an option.
We donāt know what their contract says, but if the studio head is saying āneverā, then presumably thatās what the contract says.
Whoās the man-child here? Tim Sweeney? The CEO of Remedy?
I havenāt been keeping up with the weird Gamer tantrum about Epic so Iām not up on who you guys are mad at. Or why.
Whoās the man-child here?
Sweeney is the man-child, unequivocally. Heās done things simply to oppose what Valve does, like making the EGS a safe haven for AI and blockchain shovelware games, outright rejecting Linux support for Fortnite (even though there is no technological barrier), and removing Rocket League from Steam. (not an exhaustive list, just to illustrate)
I wouldnāt say a single bad thing about Sam Lake. He is cursed with limitless creativity in a hostile ecosystem.
It sounds like Tim Sweeney is making decisions motivated by money, not necessarily out of childishness. I think thereās a difference. I probably agree that theyāre shitty decisions for consumers, but itās pretty clear what his motives are.
Also, Sam Lake is not the CEO of Remedy. I had to go look it up. Itās someone named Tero Virtala who Iāve never heard of.
āepic takes less of a cutā yeah but theyāre getting 0 right now because they donāt get any money at all from it until the money upfront is earned back by epic which at this rate theyāre not going to so while remedy got the money to make the game I donāt think theyāll ever see another penny for it
Wait what game was that?
Oh wait you mean Shenmue 3? Yakuzaās like āGood Shenmueā anyway
Alan Wake 2, as mentioned by the article I linked. Sales have dried up before it became profitable, but Sweeney has confirmed that it wouldnāt be released on Steam.
Oh, I donāt really remember anyone giving a shit about Alan Wake 1.
As a writer, I give any story ABOUT a writer a hard fucking pass.
You should give it a shot. The gameplay is fun and, while Iām not sure, I think Alan Wake is supposed to be a trash writer. Less Stephen King, more Dan Brown so that takes a lot of the edge out of it.
Itās always had its fans. The story is a pulp adventure with notes of Stephen King (without the cocaine), the action gameplay ranges from underwhelming to pretty bad, and the narrationās delivery by Matthew Porretta is flatter than a bowling alley, but it all comes together as something incredibly charming. I credit Twitch user shaft_of_justice with the most accurate description: āthe best 6/10 game there isā.
eh the first oneās on my list of
āMedia I had no interest in, but now I play DBD and need context for the crossover contentā
Alongside Stranger Things andā¦ well Saw was on the list but then I marathoned the films. Tokyo Ghoulās also on that list because thatās allegedly dropping in March
Just a tip for Tokyo Ghoul the anime is alright but very very bad compared to the manga. The anime made some very stupid changes for the story and failed to capture much of the tone of the manga.
Honestly I like it just for the Poets of the Fall soundtrack
My main gripe with it being on EGS is I just donāt know when itās on sale. For Steam games I can add to my wishlist and get notified when a game comes on sale. If I canāt do that for a particular game I tend to forget it exists.
I can imagine Epic arenāt too concerned about sales, the funding probably comes from the same bucket that funds all those free games. The long term vision of getting to make EGS a think trumps short term profits.
Thanks I hadnāt seen that. Iāll take a look
From the article you posted nobody at Remedy complained that the game was underperforming because of Steam nor does Epic grant them any continuous revenue stream that they would rely on beyond AW2 shipping.
Remedy employs 300+ highly skilled and paid people in one of the countries with the highest standards of living while having no access to your live service cosmetics battle pass skibidi money. This means they HAVE to have upfront cash somewhere in the loop because they happen to make very technically bespoke, well crafted titles take years to make. Thatās the same reason why Tencent has a minority share in 80% of VG companies you know at this point - including Remedy - one time purchases just donāt do the trick anymore if you want to even ship a game, especially if you donāt crowd it with scammy monetization.
Itās one thing not to like some frontend (and yea EGS is ass on many accounts) but blaming a company for making a sound business decision by safeguarding their ability to produce games that are very much a lost best from a purely financial standpoint is seriously odd. Itās not just Alan Wake - do you know the proportion of game time players have spent on titles released in 2023 or 2024 during those same years? Itās less than 10% - nearly all the rest is live service. Within that same group youāre fighting against your BG3s (you know, the same game that was nearly cancelled because Larian was strapped for cash) and any other solo game that happened to be successful. Itās dire.
Nobody at Remedy is pretending EGS is the better platform, seeing this under any other lens than basic business logic is honestly weird. Wanna know why anyone would sign an exclusivity deal with Epic? Just look at the state of the games industry.
Could you post the article text? Itās ad-walled
