- cross-posted to:
- world@quokk.au
- cross-posted to:
- world@quokk.au
A Wisconsin woman accused of stabbing her classmate to please horror character Slender Man more than a decade ago asked a judge again Friday to release her from a psychiatric hospital.
Morgan Geyser, who is now 22 years old, filed a petition with Waukesha County Circuit Judge Michael Bohren seeking her release from the Winnebago Mental Health Institute. The petition marks the third time in the last two years she has asked Bohren to let her out of the facility.
She withdrew her first petition two months after filing it in 2022. Bohren denied her second request this past April, saying she remains a risk to the public.
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So she was 12 when she did it, but is still a danger to others 10 years later if I’m reading correctly.
Was the psychiatric hospital meant to rehabilitate her?Was the psychiatric hospital meant to rehabilitate her?
If possible, otherwise keep her away from pointy items. Working in psychiatry years ago, I’ve met people for whom their psychiatric diagnosis was chronic, and whom you could dope all you wanted, but their psychosis never retreated. All you could do was keep them from hurting themselves or others.
Sometimes we need a way to shield individuals from the general public, without it actually being a punishment. Lady in the story sounds like an example.
Being put in a criminal psychiatric facility for life doesn’t sound like “without it actually being a punishment” to me.
Especially not in the U.S.
It depends, I worked in a similar place and the people there lived in relative comfort. Obviously it’s going to be a sad situation regardless, as even in the best of settings they no longer have freedom. but to some of the people in there they preferred it. Many of them had their own collections of books and even some video games and the like in their rooms and they could do things like working at the canteen to occupy their time otherwise. For someone with very severe mental issues, living somewhere that keeps you away from the world and makes sure you’re fed and relatively safe can be preferable.
I mean sure, but at 12 years old you cannot possibly be a lost cause I would think, there is still so much development going on.
That is like saying a 12 year old should be able to be healed from being quadriplegic because they are still growing. Some medical conditions are for live (at our current medical knowledge) and it doesn’t matter if they are “physical” or “mental”.
There’s a huge difference between neurological growth and limb growth. Now if you could point to the physical damage on her brain and display evidence it can’t heal I might agree with you. But as it stands all we know is an atrocious act and our own cultural biases that make it easy and convenient to say that a 12 year old committing such an act is irreparably broken.
And even if the causative disorder is irreparable, many psychological disorders allow for workarounds and treatments that can prevent the catastrophic scenarios.
It’s not physical damage to her brain. She has schizophrenia and developed symptoms of it at an abnormally young age. She didn’t have a clear grasp on what was and wasn’t real and that ultimately led her to stab her friend nineteen times. It’s clearly a condition that has presented itself as very dangerous for her, and it needs to be under control before she can be released.
That’s a false equivalence
It’s up to the medical practitioners to decide.
Why?
Just because their brains are still developing doesn’t mean they aren’t developing wrong.
If the foundation is fucked the whole thing is gonna be fucked no matter how much time you give it.
Some people are unfortunately born with fucked foundations be they physical or mental.
Well you could be. Some people are just born that way.
Sure you can. Every psychopath, sociopath, narcissist was that when they were 12. They went on to do bad things later. What makes this person unusual is the lack of impulse control.
Nowhere near every sociopath goes on to do bad things. Most of them are normal people living among us.
It’s notable that there was a story roughly 15 years ago about a psychology researcher who put people into MRIs to scan their brains. He found out that psychopaths have different development than the general public. He put himself in for funsies and found that he has the same structural issues. When he asked his family about it, they confirmed that they had always known he was a psychopath.
To your point, you can absolutely be a functional member of society with one of these disorders, but the likelihood that you can’t be is also heavily increased.
Doing bad things and getting away with it.
Saying every psycopath was like that when he was 12 is not the same as saying every 12 year old with psychopathic behaviours went on to do bad things.
This girl went on to have a normal life after getting treated, for example: https://youtu.be/UNMUFlpIero
A twelve year old who stabs another twelve year old 19 times is outside of normal.
I’d be fine with executing anyone who does that, at any age, unless it’s in self defense.
A twelve year old who stabs another twelve year old 19 times is outside of normal.
I agree, it is not normal.
I’d be fine with executing anyone who does that,|…]
You must American, most of the civilized world would show compassion and try to help the preteen.
[…] at any age,[…]
You would be fine with executing a 5yo who had a temper tantrum and stabbed their friend? You’d probably have to do it yourself, would you still be fine with it then? How would you like to do it? With a gun, or would you poison the 5yo?
[…] unless it’s in self defense.
OK, you’re definitely American, nobody but Americans have this distorted an idea of self-defense. Stabbing someone 19 times is never self-defense.
If you don’t mind me asking, do you consider yourself a religious person? If yes, what faith?
Just a question… Are there any mental health issues which cannot be treated? As you have worked in psychiatry, any input will be highly appreciated.
Schizophrenia can be untreatable.
Fachism sometimes too. \j
Of course, Hitchcock was his own sort of petty fascist on a film set (and a rapist), so he was probably not the best person to deliver that message.
I don’t disagree, I’m just saying…
That’s why we don’t let those people become presidents
That and he was British.
Psychologist here, depends on what you mean by treated. Most mental illnesses aren’t like a cold where you’re able to take some medication and get rid of it, they’re more like a chronic back injury that you learn to manage. For most people, some combination of therapy and chemical treatment is sufficient to allow them to live a life where their mental health is managed. There are people whom chemical treatment doesn’t work on, sometimes because of unhealthy brain chemistry, and who are unwilling or unable to participate in therapy. Unfortunately for these people, there’s not much that can be done for them short of a miracle.
Thank You for such a exhaustive reply… Treated meant can it be like a pill based solution… But as you mentioned it doesn’t work that way
Have you had any patients with a history of violence at this level?
I don’t work with patients, and my area of research doesn’t have much overlap with psychopathy or schizotypal behavior thankfully. My research subjects are screened to try and exclude people with those traits beforehand. I’ve known colleagues that have spent some time working for prison populations though, so if your question is whether I think this particular girl is beyond saving, not even close. Some of the stories my colleagues have told me about patients they had at prison, patients that scared them even when an armed guard was present, those patients don’t typically feel remorseful for what they’ve done or even acknowledge it was wrong. It seems like in this case, the girl got wrapped up in a fantasy that was encouraged when she was young by her friend, and nobody was there to intervene and push her back to reality. It’s just a sad tragedy. If anything, I’d be more worried about her succumbing to depression due to guilt.
My question was essentially “Are you speaking from experience or theory?”
Sounds like the answer is theory.
If you’d worked with someone who’d done attempted murder to this level, then seen them go on to lead an otherwise evil-free life, I’d consider that seriously.
I worked (admittedly as a custodian, so not an expert at all) in close contact with people who had antipersonality disorder. These were people who had been convicted of sexual assault and had served a sentence then had been deemed unfit to return to society. I don’t believe any of them could get any amount of treatment that would have made them truly safe around others, even if they behaved well on their wards.
Mental illness can almost never truly be cured, and some people can be simply too dangerous to be allowed complete freedom. It’s sad to think about, but I think until we have a better understanding of the mind and how to better treat people with issues like this, it’s better that certain people stay “locked up” as it were. So long as they are given humane treatment and accommodations, of course.
The mind or brain is so intricately wired that understanding it a quite a big task… But hope so one day medical research can bring solution to mental health problems… Till then fingers crossed
Even though three others have chimed in, as OP I’m gonna give it a go as well.
First off, I’m definitely not an expert. My job was mainly to stay with people who had been constrained to their bed, using leather straps. Other times to make sure the patient had as much freedom as possible, without doing certain things. So pretty low level stuff, like talking, minding my own business, and occasionally dodging fecal matter (not figuratively!)
I met adults who had been psychotic since their early teens. And I met people who were admitted on account of a bad reaction to drugs, mainly marijuana, resulting in them being aggressive and delusional. Then the next week they would be calm and rational, behaving like you and me.
I can’t tell you what can be treated, and what can’t. But I can tell you that I’ve met people who did stop being psychotic for the rest of their life. And I can tell you that far far most patients were able to, periodically, live somewhat ordinary lives after getting help.
Was the psychiatric hospital meant to rehabilitate her?
You’re cute.
This is America.
Probably. But this is not the first time something like this happened
Well, there’s concerns here. The mind was able to be convinced of the reality of a clearly fictional character. The mind concluded on murder, of all things, as a solution to something. The mind did this almost entirely on its own, despite what it’s been taught and witnessed of others.
Because people can’t read minds, things observed of that mind will be very carefully assessed. Things like showing vivid imagination, unusual reaction, unusual phases of personality or empathy change, etc. And being so young, connections were likely shaped and formed in impressionable years and these are the hardest to undo; essentially things like personality are established by 12 and the core of it remains relatively unchanged for the entire life.
She could be ready; she could’ve been ready a few years ago. But it is the job of experts to ensure that mind is extremely unlikely to do that again, and that it isn’t vulnerable to change when released. Get that wrong and the loss is much higher than what is currently occurring.
Because people can’t read minds, things observed of that mind will be very carefully assessed.
That is one of the biggest difficulties when dealing with psychiatric patients- there is no straightforward “blood test” to determine what’s really going on.
While other branches of medicine can do an x-ray and see a broken bone, or do a blood test to determine blood sugar, mental health diagnosis relies on observation of the patient, interpreting their answers to questions, and relying on some amount of self assessment.
If the patient is intentionally “presenting well” in an attempt to “get out of the loonie bin”, it can make diagnosis and assessment extra challenging.
I’d recommend reading this article that was linked in the AP article which has more details about the sentence and following appeals:
https://apnews.com/article/morgan-geyser-slender-man-stabbing-release-petition-09a2537704c926675c39349a45f9bfdeThe point is specifically to get them to the point where they can stand trial.
She did stand trial - she was sentenced.
A lot of people in this thread really down playing or overlooking she willingly stabbed someone 19 times.
Carl, that kills people!
Yeah, that’s the thing that stands out for me too. 19 freaking times. Over and over. Horrible.
It’s unclear to me why people are downvoting you here.
Well it’s the fact that she did this as an untreated mentally ill 12 year old, and now they have a decade of treatment under their belt. The request actually contains a request to be assessed by an expert.
The one-page petition doesn’t include any arguments for Geyser’s release. Instead, it cites state laws that require Bohren within 20 days to appoint at least one expert to examine her and produce a report within 30 days of being appointed.
If she hasn’t been assessed there’s no reason not to assess her now that she’s requested it.
There is a link in the article to an earlier article that covers her 1st request, in which there was an assessment:
Judge Michael Bohren ruled against Morgan Geyser, now 21, despite the testimony of two psychiatrists, including the medical director of Winnebago Mental Health Institute, who said she was ready to depart that hospital and return to the community under certain conditions.
Yeah, it’s not clear if they were the court appointed psychiatrist and if they assembled a report like the law requires. If they did, and the judge ignored it and their testimony he’s being a shitbird.
Agree that the expert testimony should be included in the posted article!
I found this article from when the trial was in progress, which includes the testimony for the second request:
Two psychologists testified Wednesday that a Wisconsin woman who at age 12 stabbed a sixth-grade classmate nearly to death to please the online horror character Slender Man should not be released yet from a psychiatric hospital.
Morgan Geyser, now 21, wants to leave Winnebago Mental Health Institute with conditions. But one psychologist said the case has taken an unusual turn because Geyser claims she had been faking psychotic symptoms, which “doesn’t line up” with years of observation and treatment.
People downvoted them, as best I can tell, for saying that being stabbed 19 times is “horrible”.
Right, it’s obvious that it’s horrible, it’s tone deaf to harp on it when she’s been incarcerated for a decade.
Got it, you’re an apologist.
No, I want to have patients assessed for release like the law requires and actually have the system do something more than abuse people.
it doesn’t seem like you’re able or willing to get it tbh
Stabbing someone 19 times is horrible, but it is immaterial a decade later in determining whether or not that person requires psychiatric care. We know why she’s in there, but the legal system is saying she should continue being there even when nurses and the director of the psych hospital all say that she doesn’t require further involuntary commitment.
She was found Not Guilty by reason of insanity. If the psych hospital she’s been confined to for the past decade says she’s ready for supervised release, keeping her there as a punishment is flat-out unconstitutional.
This sounds like your first injustice. In fact, people are quite commonly held back for years or decades after their sentences for stuff like this. It suck, it really does. You have to vote/get involved if you want to change it.
For all of you saying this girl is a lost cause, I suggest you look into the Parker-Hulme murder. It was turned into the film Heavenly Creatures.
Two girls murdered one of the girls’ mothers. It was a premeditated murder. The mother was not some horribly abusive woman, the kids had developed an incredibly unhealthy fantasy life which was replacing reality for them and they got separated. There was queerphobia involved, but it was the 1950s so that’s not surprising, but the fantasy thing was a much bigger issue.
During their relationship, the girls invented their own personal religion, with their own ideas on morality. They rejected Christianity and worshipped their own saints, envisioning a parallel dimension called The Fourth World, essentially their version of Heaven. The Fourth World was a place that they felt they were already able to enter occasionally, during moments of spiritual enlightenment. By Parker’s account, they had achieved this spiritual enlightenment because of their friendship.
Anyway, they decided to murder Hulme’s mother so they could stay together and ended up both in prison. They were older than this woman was at the time they committed their murder.
Both were released after a five years in prison.
Neither murdered again.
Also, America’s extreme sentence lengths have not been found to reduce recidivism. I don’t like prisons in general, but in particular I hate that we seem to not give half a shit if the harm we authorize them to do actually improves anything, especially before allowing them to do more harm. This is especially true when we’re talking about someone who successfully pled insanity, which is really fucking difficult actually
I hope this woman gets the treatment she needs then is released and commits no more crime.
This is also why conservatives rail against things like Dungeons and Dragons.
Dungeon and Dragon players actually learn to follow rules.
Homebrew players are obviously satanists /s
well then they should do something about the Bible first
No, but you see, that’s different. Trust me, (wink).
I mean yeah, but this isn’t a statistical sample, we should have meaningful data to give us recidivism rates for different crimes.
Sometimes the damage is deep, sometimes it’s readily curable. Hard to tell which without work.
Damn, that was 10 years ago?
I remember when this happened. I think it’s wild that she is still being detained for it.
It happens. I know a weird amount of people who stabbed someone as a kid. Two of them went to the same institution at different times and they both told told me about a girl was really tall, 6 foot at age 13, who had stabbed a few staffers with shanks and almost started a number of fires.
Apparently the staff told them she would never have a moment of freedom in her life.
Did the staff tell her she would never have a moment of freedom in her life before the stabbing and the fires started? Because that might explain them.
So many people like to ignore that mentally ill people are rarely acting out just to act out. Yes it happens, but often there’s a line of reasoning, including emotional disregulation and failure to appropriately escalate. Take someone with those traits, lock them up, and add distress to them (especially when you’re frustrated at their behavior) and they’re prone to do whatever they think they can.
No clue. I kind of doubt it.
… really? It’s really crazy to you that someone who
murderedattempted to murder a little girl and blamed a meme has been in a mental hospital for 10 years?Edit: meh. I’m at a “everyone sucks here” conclusion. The abusers suck, and the US prison / mental health “totally not prison” systems all suck.
That 'someone" was a mentally ill child. Yes it’s crazy to lock up a twelve year old for 10+ years. Period. Full stop. But beyond that especially one that was mentally ill at the time who you were supposed to be treating for the last ten years.
You’ve misread. She is and has been in a mental health facility this whole time.
I didn’t misread, being in a criminal mental health facility is being locked up. In the US they no better than prisons.
I think you need to read up on what they do to kids in such facilities.
Treat them?
Yes. Treat them:
The report says staff at Piney Ridge Treatment Center, an Acadia-owned PRTF in Fayetteville, “routinely simultaneously chemically restrained and secluded children, in violation of federal regulation.”
“At that same facility, staff conducted 110 restraints and seclusions in a 30-day period,” it says.
The report documented numerous problems at Millcreek Behavioral Health in Fordyce, another Acadia-owned PRTF. One child, for example, was regularly strip-searched, and, at least, twice subjected to a vaginal cavity search by staff. “During the restraint, a staffer touched her breast and made her squat naked in the shower for a forced vaginal cavity search,” the report said.
Treat them like animals.
Not really. Some just abuse them and often won’t let them go no matter how much they improve. They are basically prisons for kids.
Just to be clear, the victim survived the stabbing. Not that that changes the intent of the crime.
Thank you, it had been a while and I misremembered. I corrected my comment
Uh yeah cuz she was fucking 12 years old when she did it…
Her parents should be in jail for not noticing her condition earlier.
You clearly never had children.
Every evil person was already who they were at the age of 12.
“There are people out there with bad person brain™ and we should just kill them.”
You really need to stop watching content made by fake “narcissism experts” and maybe fucking educate yourself on what mental illness actually is.
You’re a worse person than the woman in n the article.
Going ad hominem really makes your argument seem weaker. To say “because you don’t see things the way I do you are a bad person” is some pretty shitty behavior.
Reading through what you say in this thread you clearly don’t want to listen to any reasonable arguments and just want to put away the evil monsters.
Actually I’m generally against the concept of prison. It is really a way for NIMBY types to warehouse those they don’t care for and allow for cruelty to be inflicted away from the public perception. I also do not think that this girl is evil, nor do I believe that “evil” exists in the world–it is a concept that reductivist thinkers believe in. She was very obviously very sick from a very young age and probably should have received some sort of intervention a very long time before any of these events occurred. In fact, society failed her and we should all feel ashamed.
That said, this person has shown signs that she cannot be allowed in public–not because she’s bad, but because she is not in contact with reality. She can hopefully be rehabilitated to some extent but may never be safely be part of the public again. None of us have been around her and none of us know for sure. It may be precisely as people here hope–she’s fine or better and can get to a point of release.
My real argument is to ask people why they are treating this like the Britney Spears event. We knew a whole hell of a lot more about her than we do about this situation. What I get in response is personal attacks and people (literally) telling me that I am an evil person who wants others to suffer. That is now how you have a conversation. If the response is “it’s obvious and you’re a bad person for not seeing it,” are we any better than the tankies?
Is it sarcasm or not?
It was slightly facetious. First: I don’t believe in the concept of evil, it’s a reductivist view of human behavior. The point is that people with personality disorders are usually born with them. To say “oh but they were young” somehow misses the fact that nearly no people at that age try to kill people for fictional figures.
Yeah, I remember this one too. Going back and reading one of the articles from when it happened, and I just don’t have words for it.
https://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/justice/wisconsin-girl-stabbed/index.html
According to the criminal complaint, the suspects had been planning the attack since February.
They first thought to kill the victim by placing duct tape over her mouth while she was sleeping and stabbing her in the neck, the complaint says.
Next, the plan was to kill her in a park bathroom where there was a floor drain that could make cleanup easier, it continued.
But, finally, the girls decided to carry out the attack in the park while playing a game of hide-and-seek, the complaint says.
Winnebago Mental Health Institute
Sounds chill
When I was 12 I got into the occult pretty hard. Ouiji boards, deities, etc. Not one fleeting thought in my head was murder. These girls are dangerous.
You probably didn’t have early-onset childhood schizophrenia. This girl was undiagnosed at the time and literally thought she was talking to Slender Man, as well as Severus Snape, unicorns, and ghosts. I’m not saying she should be released, but she’s been in treatment for a decade, and she’s requesting the court appoint an expert to evaluate her and make a recommendation about her release. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Occult is not bad. Really terrible comparison.
Wow, so you didn’t have schizophrenia, and you didn’t have the same problems as someone who did? Sounds about right, maybe you should understand what you’re talking about before you open your dumb mouth.
