LTT has lived long enough and grown large enough to see themselves being the villain. I suppose fame and wealth can corrupt a person easily, the arrogance in the response from Linus is disappointing.
LTT hasn’t been a serious or informative tech channel for years, you don’t watch their video for information but for entertainment. They try to right the course by creating the Lab team but miss the point when they don’t change their mindset.
It’s like Top Gear vs Fifth Gear back in the days. You don’t buy a new car base on the reviews on Top Gear, likewise if I want useful consumer advice, LTT is the last place I look.
The arrogance Linus displays has been ever increasing for the past year. I’ve never followed LTT close enough to truly know how he treats people, but it’s seemed to me that he’s a bit of an obnoxious knob and belittles others.
Absolutely but I think it’s a bit more than that. Linus is just not relevant to his own company anymore, it’s grown beyond him. Honestly it’s kinda a mark of success. Linus has the personality of a small to medium social media creator and it’s gotten him this far. Fortunately and unfortunately his company is no longer just a social media group, they’re expanding and Linus isn’t skilled or experienced at that; he’s a social media star. Hiring someone else to be CEO was a good idea, time will tell if Tong was a good choice. Honestly what we’re watching is LMG going through a growing pain and hopefully they’re better for it and don’t close shop.
My take on it:
We know that we’re not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it’s sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing.
Yeah, well, that’s one of the main issues addressed in this video: You are not transparent about this, when you swap out videos without notice or bury corrections in a non-pinned comment.
Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn’t materially change the recommendation.
If the listing is wrong, who guarantees the lab tests on which the conclusion is based on are not wrong?
The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes.
Take the time it needs to produce correct reviews then. Who wants fast but false results?
The part that struck me was Linus talking about how he hopes Billet does well because it’s a harsh industry. It’s a harsh industry for Billet because the biggest reviewer in the space took their prototype, mis-tested it, panned it, and then sold it at auction. Trying to paint that as a one-off is difficult, because it wasn’t a mixed bag on the quality of the experience. It was awful start to finish.
If I’m a small company trying to get a name in the space, I’d never go to LMG. “Trust me bro, we dunk on stuff, so you know we’re honest,” is a bad take if you’re the one getting dunked on due to lazy journalism and R&D.
Yeah, that was super unprofessional :/
Some of the most frustrating and least empathetic people are the ones who come from nothing. They grind down people who are currently drowning at the bottom like they’re doing them a favor.
Followup on Linus’ response from GN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3byz3txpso
we have a discussion on it going on here https://lemmy.ml/post/3376890?scrollToComments=true
Yeah I pinned that.
Dude sold out forever ago. ALL INFLUENCERS ARE JUST CORPORATE MOUTHPIECES.
Linus Sebastian was always a half-competent corporate shill. Now it also turns out he’s a greedy asshole
I honestly don’t believe this. I still believe Linus isn’t a shill and usually has consumer interests at heart, I think the problem is that he’s just pushing too hard and feels like he’s in a fight for survival at all times, and I don’t know if I can blame him for that, being a YouTuber is harsh. He tries to keep his company afloat to feed all his employees, but sometimes that focus on profit is to the detriment of quality and then fuckups happen. And I think Linus is too tunnel visioned on that profitability aspect to realise that stuff like this hurts his brand a lot more than he believes…
I started the video shocked that GN would do a video like this at all. I was 100% ready to blame GN for being petty. As I watched and listened, though, he made really good points, and I can’t help but agree. Especially on the points where Linus doubles down on really bad takes instead of doing the right thing, insisting it doesn’t matter (there are loads more examples than just Billet).
The one thing he didn’t say that I wish he had, though, is to remind people that he’s focused on industry journalism, not just hardware itself. This isn’t a hit piece, it’s an information piece, where he holds industry players accountable. Not unlike his journalism on Newegg and Asus. No, it’s not positive, but it’s honest, and it informs and benefits consumers.
I got the sense that he didn’t really want to have to do a video like this. He kind of said as much a couple of times. And in one section he mentioned he has kind of tip-toed around directly calling out LTT on specific screwups for some time. Like posting his results that contradicted theirs with the hope that people would notice but without directly going “looks at LTT’s bogus numbers wtf”
I kind of felt like he got to a point where he couldn’t in good conscience ignore it any longer because the pile of fuckups had gotten too big and too egregious with this billet labs fiasco.
I’m glad he did the vid because, yeah, he has done a good job of holding others accountable as you said, and this is exactly the same ethos. It’s tough because I imagine you don’t want to be seen as just doing hit pieces against the competition. There’s an inherent conflict of interest at play. But given sufficiently good evidence and enough of it, I think that puts those concerns almost entirely to rest.
The kind of person to be doing reviews is someone who values the truth – accurate results and sound conclusions – over money, ego, fame and popularity, etc. Someone with a great deal of curiosity, skepticism, mental flexibility, and humility. Sounds like that is the near polar opposite of Linus.
I find it hard to believe, sometimes, that fully grown adults exist who cannot admit their mistakes which just reminds me of how damn lucky I am to work where I do, with a culture that encourages fessing up and fixing rather than covering up and blaming. Where the overwhelming majority of people I have ever worked with is about doing the right thing with an eye primarily on the goal rather than their own ego and ambition.
Yeah, he didnt do a video to roast LTT and he also didnt insult him.
He just stated what he sees as going wrong at LTT and how it could be fixed.
I stopped watching LTT a long time ago because of similar reasons, it was just so frustrating to see them start a project, barely finish it, release the video and the not finish it.
Other times they made a big mistake in the middle and continued with the video “because we dont have time to fix it”.
I prefer Youtubers that may have months between videos, but when a new one is out, I nkow its going to be a good one.
And if they do a project, when it has an issue, they either continue the video until it is fixed, or they read it in the comments and someday we will get a follow up.
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The issue with the water block is massive to me. Testing a prototype product on a GPU that it wasn’t made for, giving it a negative review, doubling down on that negative review when called out, promising to return the prototype to Billet Labs, then SELLING the prototype to the public at their LTX expo. As Steve points out, if a competitor gets their hands on that prototype, it could put Billet Labs out of business. This is wild, and LMG should absolutely be called out like this.
There should be actual, legitimate, law enforcement involvement… Cause its literally theft at best, corporate espionage at worst.
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A $100million dollar company should be able to reclaim that property even if it means paying through the nose to get it back to the rightful owner. Losing a mass production GPU is one thing, that can be fixed with a check. A one of a kind prototype though? And who would make the decision to give something like that away, especially without consent? Things like that should come with a letter of endorsement of the charity sale, or at least have a (year plus) pause before just giving it away.
Until I saw that I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Even knowingly fudging numbers, while bad, is a temptation it’s easy to see someone trying to keep up with the content rat race falling into.
The corporate espionage on the other hand is fucking gross. Unless Billet Labs provides a statement that fully absolves LTT of any wrongdoing and states they OK’d the auction, I’m prepared to not engage with LMG at all anymore. Which sucks because I kinda like their water bottle.
I know we’ve only heard one side of the story so far, so I’ll reserve judgement. If it turns out as bad as it sounds though, they can get Anker’d
It wasn’t knowingly fudging numbers, they mentioned in the video that it was not designed for the gpu.
Yeah I’ve since caught up on the responses, and as far as “fudging the numbers” that was with regards to their errors in other testing; the Billet Labs situation is just flat-out shitty.
None of that was knowingly though, it was accidental and the concern is just the frequency and inadequate response.
Not too mention totally ignoring the instructions billet labs provided
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Thanks.
I really hated him talking about wanting to review it as a product (which he thought nobody would buy). It’s a prototype. It’s specifically not a product yet. That’s the whole point of a prototype. It’s a concept and idea working towards a launch. For as often as they have videos with preproduction, engineering sample products, he absolutely knows the difference.
They should seriously get legal repercussions for this particular fuckup
They didn’t sell it, the auctioned it 🤡
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I don’t know if Billet has the appetite to sue. It seems like Billet and LMG came to an agreement
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You’re right. There was a follow up video from GN with Billet’s response. LMG did indeed send them an email to reimburse the cost of the lost prototype, but they haven’t replied. It’s not as settled as I thought.
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Given the level of damage done Yeah, Billet Labs should be suing LMG could end up tanking their company
Damn this is eye opening for me. LTT was always my most trusted source for tech reviews. I noticed that they’d make little mistakes every once in a while, but didn’t realize it was part of a larger problem. I actually made a Ryzen 9 7900 buying decision recently because of this video which made it seem like the best value (especially compared to their very confusing 7950x3d review). After watching this GN video though, I feel stupid for not even thinking to check other channels before making a buying decision.
(Although honestly this is a major upgrade over my previous hardware, so even if it wasn’t the best possible option, it’s still a net positive for me.)
I really hope LTT takes this criticism seriously. It’s always gratifying to see misbehavior have consequences on the internet, but these independent reviewers are pretty much the only people on our side as consumers. I’d rather see a course correction than a crash, especially since LMG in particular has a uniquely powerful position and can have real impacts on manufacturers that benefit consumers.
LTT used to be fun because they’d get a bit more creative than other youtubers and weren’t to cringewrothy (I’m talking back in the house with the kitchen set) and occasionally would go on some bonkers home engineering projects that were just stupid fun. But as my IT career grew I learned just how disconnected they are from enterprise IT and just how focused on gaming hardware they are (and just how boring gaming computers are) and now that I have a degree in networking and they’ve been struggling to level up their networking game I really just shake my head.
I watch them for entertainment purposes but anytime they look at server-y stuff I’m more watching to see how bad they are than to learn anything or see anything cool.
Its fine that they have their niche, its fine that they’re trying to expand out of it, and I wish them the best, but they’ve got a concerning cultural problem that needs to be addressed before they can effectively grow more
Edit: wow this seemed so big when it was just a accuracy and integrity issue but now that seems so small with the new revelations from Madison. I wish everyone working the grind at LTT the best and hope everyone who sexually harassed and groped can find a nice thorny cactus as their new office chair
They’re not even the only ones doing server/enterprise grade hardware anymore. And they’re obviously incapable of competing in that area with more knowledgeable channels (outside of a few employees who can’t carry a whole LTT video by themselves).
I get the feeling Linus is just gonna double down on his bullshit on the wan show to justify it.
He already kinda did in the forums
Not a good look…
It was a long post, but he honestly didn’t really say much in it. He just doubles down or strongly downplays the potential damage that can be done or even has been done. Pretty disappointing response, honestly. With that said, I would hope that people would do their due diligence and check multiple sources before making purchasing decisions and not solely make those decisions off of an entertainment channel - but even still, LTT can and should do better. The prototype auction situation is just a tragic failure and could be insanely damaging to Billet, even with LTT paying the prototype invoice. Disappointing all around.
He outright lied about Billet compensation too.
This should be a lesson for all. Never trust a single source, always be critical of the information presented.
Holy shit lol. I can never watch another Linus video again without thinking about this criticism.
Do people still watch Linus for actual reviews? The amount of times him and his team get basic facts wrong makes it unwatchable for me, from that standpoint.
At this point it’s just an entertainment production, watching Linus Tech Tips for actual tech review content would be like watching the original UK Top Gear for actual car reviews. Which makes LTTs foray into more data/fact driven stuff all the more puzzling. They had a good thing going with the more entertainment focused angle, hired some people that were funny, but I don’t know what happened to that.
Ever since they started their “labs” they’ve been trying to push themselves as actual reviewers and no longer casual tech reviews.
Which makes little sense to me. They carved out a very nice place on the internet being entertaining instead of half the video being spreadsheets and stats about computer hardware. Seems as if they want their fingers in every pie now.
I mean yeah that’s exactly why they’ve split of into multiple channels to convert a wider spectrum of content. I wouldn’t be surprised if they start another channel with tech comedy skits.
I was surprised to learn that they have their own streaming service, full service production agency and tech convention, and that their store sells a lot more than just t-shirts.
It seems safe to say that yes, they do want their fingers in every pie.
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Yeah that’s the vibe I’m getting
The streaming service thing makes sense too, considering how shit YouTube is
Linus stepped down as CEO. He clearly just wanted someone else to make the profit-worship decisions.
Linus always wanted to be more, to go back to helping people with good guides and reviews, but he just can’t seem to stop with the entertaining for long enough to actually produce high quality informational content.
Especially since you already have established places with good methodologies (gamers nexus for computer parts, hdtvtest/other professional calibrators for TVs, rtings for TVs, monitors and most electronics).
Reviews are probably the only thing that I consistently watch. I tend to agree with others here that a lot of the other videos recently haven’t been catching my interest. That or it’s just a behind the scenes of Linus’ home project.
I never have. General industry commentary, I have a few times, but when I want actual facts and what feels like a thorough dive, I’ve always done HUB and GN along with text reviews (which I prefer) from places like Tom’s Hardware
Linus is tabloid-style to me and it’s junk food at best
Edit : Linux changed to Linus. Though Linux is some tasty junk food
Linux is tabloid-style to me and it’s junk food at best
Safe to assume you meant Linus?
Fuckin android many words after-the-fact autocorrects
dont you love it?
How autocorrect just decides to go back and change a word from the last paragraph with no warning and suddenly your concise argument looks like you do not have the human standard amount of neurons
Yet a few replies after that one I had to edit my sentence because it has no problems leaving a word spelled as “woth”
There’s literally nothing else it can be except for with
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I’ve had beef with LTT since his series of videos where he tried to use Linux as a daily driver while making absolutely zero effort to understand any of the differences between it and Windows, then proceeded to whine about how it’s not Windows. The part where he broke his system after it explicitly warned him he was about to break it and asked for rather thorough confirmation that he wanted to do so was where I stopped watching him for good.
There’s being ignorant and then there’s being stupid. I fault nobody for being ignorant of how something works when they first encounter it. I do, however, fault them when they demand changes be made without actually understanding the implications of those changes.
But that’s how the typical user behaves. I love Linux and what you can do with it, but it’s so tone deaf to think oridanry people are going to behave any diffeent than Linus did. People just don’t have the time to take that effort you expect of yourself, only enthusiast have this kind of time. Other people are enthusiastic about other things. We need to all respect this.
Ugh, it’s so frustrating. Linux will continue to be irrelevant to consumers as long as this attitude of “just put in the effort to understand” persists.
Yes! The Linux coverage from LTT is positive and encourageing UNLESS Linus is in the video then he looks for any excuse to raise his voice and yell “this is stupid” or “its going to break on me in 5 minutes”. Emily’s very good coverage of PopOS back in 2019 ish got me into Linux and I have not looked back. Its disappointing to see how with many things (not just Linux) how Linus will change the direction of a video to be more entertainmenting/clickbaity at the cost of good information and quality.
I think what becomes clear when watching a lot of videos is that Linus is more of a tech fanboy that is good at all the high level stuff and can sell it in an entertaining way. He is not however someone who is super into the weeds of a specific technology, tool or system beyond applying his „I’ve worked with technology before“ knowledge.
They have other folks on the show for that.
It that being said. I wouldn’t fault him for his experience with PopOS!. That was totally on the OS and not his fault.
Totally agree on the first part though, he is a total tech fan boy.
He is constantly taking his surface level knowledge of item X and extrapolateing it out to create new assumptions but he saying it with enough confidence that it sounds like a fact.
PopOs fucked up a bit leaving that iso live for so long with the steam cache issue, but Linus has to take responsibility here to. It was not “totally on the OS” there where many off ramps that where missed.
For example:
- On the pop shop GUI if he first installed the system updates that would have run a background apt update avoiding the issue. There was a red bubble indicator you can see in the video that should have drawn his attention if he was not in a rush.
- On the pop shop steam page there was a list box that would have allowed him to install the flatpak version of steam, its not like it was hidden or anything it was right next to the install button and its was in fact bigger than the install button.
- Most people googling the terminal way of installing apps in linux would have also run apt update but he either skipped this bit or just ran the first thing he saw on google… He probably would have also typed in “rm -rf /*” if google told him to without a second thought.
- He could have also just read what the OS was trying to tell him, pause, have a think and maybe ask some one like emily? But no he was in a rush so no time for that.
He got into this issue mainly because he was rushing, it was more entertaining and created drama.
His series on linux got me interested in linux and a few weeks before the first ep came out I made the switch. I had been using linux as a brand new user for 4 weeks when watching his “review” of linux and I thought it was unfair. But linux made a good first impression on me and I am still daily driving it and now all my machines run linux.
Good God that was infuriating. Watching the prompt pop up when he was installing Steam or whatever asking him to confirm if he really wanted to remove the GUI was awful. He just said yes and felt like Linux was the issue. Nope.
In the years I have spent IT adjacent, the primary difference I have noticed between Windows and Linux has nothing to do with drivers, OS, UI, or anything like that. It’s that Windows has long conditioned users to hit OK on anything that pops up. Linux expects you to read it and make a choice, and it’s usually not that difficult of a choice. Linus pulled up a web page, blindly followed instructions without reading, and borked his install. Predictable. It’s the same behavior that gives grandma a computer virus.
Yeah, this irked me too. I get trying to be the average person (and Pop! was also bugged at the time), but I find it really hard to believe that the average person would approach linux and completely ignore serious warning messages.
I work in IT. Average people tend to fall into one of two categories when presented with big scary warning messages.
Category 1: They freak out and immediately ask for help, and tend to be very skeptical of anything you tell them to do until the message goes away.
Category 2: They ignore the message and YOLO it like Linus did, then call for help hours or days later when something inevitably breaks.
It’s rare for either group of people to read an comprehend the message in it’s entirety.expired
I some cases sure, but a lot of the time it’s simple stuff like “Save changes before quitting?” or “You need to restart to apply updates. Restart now?” and they still can’t figure it out.
I find it really hard to believe that the average person would approach linux and completely ignore serious warning messages.
Have you met people? They do this with Windows.
In that case, there’s no reason to pretend to be the “average person” at all, and Linus may as well have just learned how to use a system before reviewing it.
Mann this was juicy. Tech Jesus was pissed, goddamn.
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Guess this is why GN and a few others were not at LTX
Billet Labs has a good case to sue LMG
With what money? Billet labs is 2 regular ass guys with 9-5s (as I understand it), LMG is a 100,000,000 dollar company (at least).
Linus’s response.
I honestly fully stand by GN in this and while I think LTT should have had the opportunity to respond to the allegations before the video went live, since this is the proper Journalistic thing to do, it should be considered that ltt has a huge audience and influence in the tech sphere so I can only assume GN didn’t want them to get ahead of the curve? It’s sad if it has come to this.
I also don’t know how exactly ltt could respond to the observations GN made since it’s a piece about what happened in videos they posted. They can’t really deny what happened. All they could do is lower their head and promise to do better.
Ugh, Hes trying so hard to double down on his comments, while giving plausible deniability to his doubling down, especially with the Billet block.
And its so fucking stupid to complain that the billet waterblock is expensive and stupid, considering ALL the stupid, expensive, wasteful bullshit hes done on his channel… Its double stupid that hes still using his basis on using the wrong card that didnt fit it as his argument.
So, you may not have caught this… Billet labs sent them the correct card with the block. LTT fucksticks lost the goddamn card.
The big reason Steve didn’t go through Linus first, and he mentions it a few times in the video, is because LMG is no longer a small company or a one man YouTube show. They’re s big company. I know Linus works hard to hit that YouTube grind, but he still sees himself as a small YouTuber.
I mean Steve would have done this same piece had it been gigabyte, Newegg, or whomever on that larger scale.
We know that we’re not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it’s sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing.
Yeah, well, that’s one of the main issues addressed in this video: You are not transparent about this, when you swap out videos without notice or bury corrections in a non-pinned comment.
Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn’t materially change the recommendation.
If the listing is wrong, who guarantees the lab tests on which the conclusion is based on are not wrong?
The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes.
Take the time it needs to produce correct reviews then. Who wants fast but false results?
Follow up on Linus’ response from GN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3byz3txpso
Server capacity exceeded Thankfully I got to read it before their forum server took a dump for some reason
I don’t feel Linus could have said anything to Steve to stop the video Really, Linus/LMG needed the wakeup call They have been making bigger and bigger stumbles and it’s not just due to growth as Linus uses it as an excuse He also said nothing would change as a result of the Billet debacle, just a tightening of documentation but it a sign of bigger issues It was the result of multiple levels of failure He should have stopped the video when he knew they didn’t have the right GPU there and even pointed out quite authoritatively to is employee his mistake in not identifying the GPU A symptom of rushing out videos on a very tight schedule possibly
Reading this is like when the Irish kid warned us all to not get frostbit.
I like GN and LTT for casual watching. But I’m very disappointed Steve opted to not do the proper thing and provide the accused party the opportunity to respond to his allegations. It comes off really hypocritical when he’s calling out one media group for lack of ethics/integrity/accountability and rushing videos out without proper checks and procedure in place and then rushes a video out and doesn’t give them a chance to respond first. And I don’t say this just because it’s GN and LTT. Could have been J2C and Hardware Unboxed or something and I’d still have this same opinion. I highly respect GN for the work they put in l, the content they make, and their quality, but this is a bit disappointing to see. Hopefully LTT cleans up their QC pipeline and thinks their actions through, and hopefully Steve at GN does too.
A bad day all around in my book.
I don’t agree.
and then rushes a video out
I don’t think this felt rushed. I think, as he said in the video, this has been brewing for months, and it felt thought through and thorough.
Steve opted to not do the proper thing and provide the accused party the opportunity to respond
I think if it was one mistake they would have done exactly that. But as it’s been a consistent trend over months or even years of sloppiness and mistakes and rushed videos, you can’t just have a word with someone and fix that overnight. I think publishing the video and their thoughts, and rallying the community to raise awareness and force them to improve, is the right move.
The most noticeable thing for me are the constant annotations. Sometimes there are so many that I’m not sure why a whole video is up if it’s half assed and they want to salvage it through bandaids.
Bot holy shit they are become sloppy and borderline corrupt. Thanks to GN for calling them out.
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What’s bad is that this isn’t the first time GN has had to call out LTT / LMG.
https://inv.tux.pizza/watch?v=jsX3tUA-wJk
Hopefully this will be the last time.
Edit: Just realized I’m not the first one here posting about the earlier LTT backpack warranty controversy. Now I get the “Trust Me Bro” comment.
I used to like them, but last time I saw USB C iPhone on thumbnail for news video, which turned out to be absolutely not usb related apple news. That was disappointing.
