Fabian � 🏳️‍🌈

@kde@floss.social @kde@lemmy.kde.social Kongratulations 🎉👏👏 woohoo 🎉

@danielsiepmann This is however only if you mix and match your php versions yourself. Stable debian is not a good base for nextcloud at all. The alternative would be docker, of witch i’m also no fan of. Sadly @nextcloud still doesnt support podman, let alone user-mode of podman.

@ChristianWS What if the application developer needs more? Hide the close button, unallow to minimize, display an exit button on fullscreen, Transform the whole app design on the fly or just to have a dark design for the application including decoration (This one hurts my eyes extremly for krita on windows 🥲️). SSD is just not flexible and might not even provide the feature set required by an application.
Thats why it would be nice to give them the option to implement it directly.

@ChristianWS There are 2 consistencies: Consistent to the system and consistent to the application.
I prefer consistent to the application, because I think the application developer is more capable to kow what the app needs then the general window decoration provider is.
🧵️…

@ChristianWS In this post: https://mstdn.social/@fabiscafe/110803301092316008
XDG-decoration is not a core part of Wayland. So there is no guarantee that the compositor your user runs does support this. So the general improvement would at least be that you dont have to test both.¹
On top of that the app could have more control over it’s decoration, for accessiblity stuff. Like going in a OLED/e-Ink/High-contrast mode.

1: https://wayland.app/protocols/xdg-decoration-unstable-v1

@ChristianWS Huh? I have shown 3 pictures of a CSD without header bar (Nextcloud, Blender, Gimp).

CSD vs SSD is about control and integration. CSD can just look like SSD, thats why I do not care about the visuals.

@ChristianWS depending on the application different things. Like I said before, the visuals, the design is not what I care about right now. It’s the option to have another talk about that topic in general.
Last time, there was no focus on wayland and there wasnt much experience with CSD in general. There also was the proposal of DWD¹ as option, that never came up.

1: https://kver.wordpress.com/2014/10/25/presenting-dwd-a-candidate-for-kde-window-decorations/

@ChristianWS I think your idea of inconsistency differs from mine. Havin buttons on different locations in a headerbar doesnt have to be inconsistent across apps. Different layouts can be consistent.
BUT I dont talk about header bars. I do talk about CSD only and they can be whatever a guideline makes them to be. All Qt apps already have a CSD, but they suck and it would be nice if app devs would be allowed to make use of them on the KDE side if they decide that it benefits the app.

@ChristianWS “Design follows technology and vice-versa.” Thats a hard one. Yes, and also no. Things dont need to be the same to behave the same. Take Firefox and Chrome. They do not look the same, they still behave the same. They share a common design guideline. You need to go to the settings to see the parts that differ.
If KDE provides a good design guideline devs would follow them, because it’s easier and faster to have working patterns instead of putting work into it yourself.

@ChristianWS It’s not the app that does this. Developer do this, they do this because they think it’s good. The KDE does have a nice visual design group (I was once part of it, So I know :P). It would be possible to define a design guide to follow so apps won’t look out of place, while still are able to make use of CSD.
Plasma doesnt need to look like GNOMEs implementation of a CSD. The visuals are a completely different thing. The technology is the important part at first.

@ChristianWS CSD can just look like the normal Window+Decoration.

My point is however that KDE can use it to at least put something to the CSD, like the app-menu if visible. Different apps would find different purposes for it and there shouldnt be a hard requirement for it, but optional feature to use for the devs.

CSD is just a ugly as you make it to be. In my opinion SSD is nowadays very out of place, vertical wasted space.

@ChristianWS How would that ruin Plasma?

@kde@floss.social @kde@lemmy.kde.social but no room for a new talk about going with client side decorations? 🥺