I didn’t know that banned person can’t view the community, that would probably made me reconsider the ban. And I don’t have any personal bans, so I see all messages. I did respond to you privately. And the only place where I didn’t, is the mentioned thread, because you was banned.
I recommend you to look again at your response when I asked you about being aware of the rules. If it was something like “I do, but I {didn’t check, overlooked it, etc}. Also I disagree with rules and will stop posting here”, it and post deletion wouldn’t look like another tantrum.
IIRC when I saw your comment about deleting your contributions, your posts and comments were already missing, so I banned that alt as you asked and thought there was nothing left to do. Initially, posts and comments weren’t purged, so peoples could better understand the reasoning of the ban and it didn’t look like a censorship. After about a week they appeared again, I thought you changed your mind, but now it’s just confusing why it happened.
I will stress it again: you was banned for deliberately breaking the rules. Not because of some incompatibility between you and them. No changes to the rules would automatically lead to your unban. Another person said that he doesn’t agree with danbooru rating (in a more polite way), but also don’t mind tagging them according to danbooru, so I decided to make them less strict to reduce back and forth with poster asking them to change tag, while giving control to mods and contributors to avoid bikeshedding rating decision to hell and prevent rating drifting too much away from danbooru. Initially, danbooru supposed to be playing such role and nobody was mad about it. If that was your idea, then I guess we agree on something.
@sag@lemm.ee mentioned your unban. I can do it, if you will address your strong antagonism. Else you can write something like “I request you to ban me if I make a post or comment in touhou@lemmy.world” to let you see posts and prevent you from exploiting any wiggle rooms, because I don’t know what you can pull of again. It’s insanely silly and I would want to avoid going this route.
I’m not opposed to automation tools, but not going to special case them in rules. And it isn’t the end of the world if post was tagged wrong, of course.
No you didn’t. You have sent me exactly one DM that was about not being able to ban my lemmy.world alt.
I sent you one message right after the ban. No reply.
I sent you another as you showed you were doubling down on your overreaction, that I wanted my contributions removed. No reply.
You even proceeded to restore content of mine after I sent those two messages about wanting my contributions gone!
At that point I was FUCKING LIVID!!!
No communication, and doing the LITERAL OPPOSITE OF WHAT I WAS ASKING when it came to my contributions.
I recommend you to look again at your response when I asked you about being aware of the rules.
Except the rules weren’t that EVERY post rated sensitive MUST be tagged. Even back then the wording was “as a rule of thumb”, and you had just yourself explained that a bunch of posts are incorrectly tagged “sensitive” on boorus due to the old “safe” tag.
By asking if I knew whether a far stricter version of the rules you made up on the spot was in effect, you came off like an absolute dick. I thought you were deliberately fucking with me! The image you commented on was in no way NSFW, so the only way I saw to interpret your comment was that you had singled me out because you hated my guts. No shit I chose my words to show I was annoyed and insulted.
Even if your understanding of the situation that I got a annoyed and threw a tantrum was correct, considering I complied immediately both times I realized I was in violation of your rules, that leaves you no valid reason to ban someone for a fucking year!
You made assumptions, and they were WRONG!!!
Now own up to it!
Unless you equate complaining about rules with deliberately breaking them, you have no argument. I wasn’t fibbing when I said I’d always do as a mod asks, but that doesn’t mean I won’t express my dissatisfaction with a nonsensical policy as I do so.
Would you even have checked the image rating if my posting script didn’t conveniently add links to danbooru in all my posts?
another tantrum
Another? That you wanted the Youmu post tagged nsfw surprised me, and I disagreed with your prudishness, so I tried to change your mind after complying with the rules. There was no heightened emotion involved. I was just presenting my problems with how you wanted things to work.
When you commented on the Marisa post, then I got annoyed, I thought you took our earlier discussion personally, and now wanted to get back at me by applying the rules over-zealously. When just pulling the post and going “dude really?” resulted in a 365-day ban, I was SURE you just hated me, and used the slightest excuse available to give me a giant middle finger!
posts and comments weren’t purged, so peoples could better understand the reasoning of the ban
Literally no-one is going to support your actions on this. They simply don’t know about it. I dare you to make and pin an honest post announcing your decision, posting every step in the drama, including this reply, and explaining your reasoning on how my actions are “deliberate” anything.
you was banned for deliberately breaking the rules
I didn’t actively choose to post that Marisa image, at that time. I found it and added it (this involves giving it a title, choosing communities to post to, and checking whether it should be tagged nsfw) to the collection my tool randomly posts from, weeks earlier.
Once you commented on it, I deleted the post, expressed annoyance that you’d want such an obviously SFW post tagged just because of its incorrect danbooru rating, and said I wouldn’t post anymore. How the fuck, do you get from that, to any potential rule-breaking I did being deliberate?
Further, how the hell does someone being so fed up with your nonsense policy, they’d rather stop posting, necessitate a ban? I wasn’t gonna post anymore, so the ban literally just PISSED ME THE FUCK OFF. You added insult to injury. How am I supposed to interpret that as anything other than gleeful malice?
Your posts and comments were already missing. After about a week they appeared again, I thought you changed your mind, but now it’s just confusing why it happened.
Buddy. You don’t even know what a ban does? I can manually visit the community. That’s it. I can’t subscribe, I can’t vote, I can’t comment or post, and I can’t edit or even delete anything.
I have no idea what you’re referring to by my content going missing. I only had time to delete the Marisa post before my ban went live, after that I had to contact the admins to get my stuff removed several weeks later.
if you will address your strong antagonism.
Frankly, I’m the one who wants an apology from you! I don’t want you anywhere near something I care about. I have zero trust left in your ability to be a competent moderator of anything, and especially not something I want to participate in.
The only way I’ll give up on making !touhou@lemmy.world irrelevant by replacing it with !touhou@ani.social is if you step down or acknowledge that banning me for an entire year was completely out of line, and that your given reason makes no sense whatsoever.
Otherwise, I’ll just replace you, so I can have a Touhou community I can actually endorse. Eventually.
I’m not opposed to automation tools, but not going to special case them in rules.
You don’t need to.
The core point there is that I don’t choose what I post day to day. There was no deliberate action of any kind involved when I made that Marisa post, and I didn’t manually go to danbooru and add a link to it.
Coding it so that it tags every post rated sensitive on danbooru as NSFW will be the easiest thing ever. It just wont make sense, because then posts like this, this, this, and this, will be censored. And even then, for any images that can’t be found on danbooru, the one deciding will still be me, exactly like before. And I still have no idea how in the world anyone would consider the Marisa post NSFW.
If that’s genuinely what you want, I’ll do it. But it WILL raise eyebrows, and guess who I’ll point to when the inevitable “why is this tagged” comments start rolling in. I know they will, because like I wrote in another comment, I actually tried doing that for like a day once, and I got four such comments.
I have reverse search extension on both phone and pc. I checked it because she was drugged up so much that she had a head pain (judging by hands position and face expression) and tear coming from her eye. Which suggests “Hard or illegal drug use”. Another reason to check your post was the previous interaction with you, where you showed of your “haha moderator” mindset and basically called me a boomer who asks women to dress up and someone who accommodates peoples with “hangups concerning the human body”. It all really seemed like an attempt to push your opinion using labels. I wasn’t insulted by it, but it made a certain impression of you.
You made assumptions, and they were wrong
This whole discussion kinda proves that they were right.
If that’s genuinely what you want …
No. I want you to fight your strong antagonism. After that I will have some hope that you won’t start doing something stupid again and will unban you without any restrictions. I will even be ok if you will continue on ani.social. It will be a bit unfortunate, but, alright. I admit that your last post probably could be handled differently and there were faults in the rules, likely they are still there. Honestly, I don’t think you deserve any apologies, though I’m not asking for any from you too.
Also, in light of most of my DMs apparently being eaten by federation issues, I’ll drop and retract the animosity. I’m sorry about that.
In return, I expect you to acknowledge that I did in fact attempt to reach you cordially.
My criticism of your policies and actions stands, however.
And, I was hardly referring to your assumptions about my charachter, but rather your assumption that my violation of any rules was at any point intentional. Which again, considering I do not actively choose what to post at any given minute, can’t possibly be the case.
And let me explain what I mean when I say that your response was out of line.
As moderators, our task is to enact and enforce rules. But enforcement doesn’t just mean deleting any and all offenders. We want to be as welcoming as possible while still not allowing the rules to be bent significantly out of true.
This means applying logic in our actions, doing things that are likely to modify behavior towards the ideal, so that near-compliance can become compliance, instead of lost activity.
You applied a ban so long, it will be EASIER for me to just supplant your community entirely, rather than wait it out and come back with improved behaviour.
I moderate over a dozen communities. You seriously think I have a “Haha moderator” mindset? Again. I wasn’t fibbing that I will unconditionally obey admins and moderators. Even if you made complaining against the rules, I’d comply.
And what you seem to be saying, is that you did take it personally?
That you did in fact allow it to affect your image of me in a way that made you to more rash, less considered, and potentially unfair in taking action against me?
I did not call you anything. I pointed out that your logic has parallel’s with some mysoginistic ways of thinking. Am I wrong? Maybe.
You’re free to think so, but if you want to change my mind on it, you’ll have to explain why. In fact, to disagree with someone, you should be able to explain that to yourself in a way that would convince most people.
And what was I supposed to do? Not explain why I thought your policy and that particular decision was too much in my view? You felt I tried to force something, but how can mere words do that? A user cannot force a moderator to do anything, except by convincing them. So I put my qualms into words. If you took offence, that was entirely unintended.
If you found yourself unable to dismantle my argument… Then I don’t know what to tell you. That’s the feeling you get when someone is trying to change your mind, and you haven’t figured out why they’re wrong yet. And if theyre right, you won’t ever figure it out (unless you opt to delude yourself, which I don’t think you’re the type to do).
I think it is beautiful, but you say it’s obscene?!
And if you do genuinely find it obscene, why would you need to check the danbooru rating? Why do you defer to some random moderator on an image board if you yourself or your users have perfectly functioning senses of judgement?
Your new rules are far more sane, but you needed to be enforcing things like the words “rule of thumb” already meant something from the get-go. When telling users to edit their posts, tell them to do so because YOU think they should, not because some inconsistent third party arbitrarily says so. The former feels like a request to respect your sensibilities. The latter comes off as you being a stickler for pointless technicalities, and is therefore abrasive.
The trouble with art, is that it isn’t objective. Yet you refuse to have a discussion about where the averages of everyone in a group lies. You offload the work of evaluation to a fallible third party in danbooru, and you justify things retroactively with subjective interpretations that don’t even account for artist intent. And you clearly ignore other people voting on the points you and I make.
Not sure what are you trying to prove by saying how many communities you moderate. Peoples being against the group they belong to isn’t something surprising. Also constructing an opinion about a person judging by their actions is just an obvious way to do that imo.
What you did is just put a label on me, because in most cases it’s so easy, these label have strong associations and lift the responsibility of actually proving your point. I would like you explain where the “misogyny” starts and ends. Is that Youmu post located beside or far from the border on a “good” side? Or where is this border located? Naked photos are probably located on a NSFW side. If you apply dichotomy (though I don’t think NSFW-ness of pictures can always be compared with each other) you will approach to your own border. Whatever it will be, there will be someone to accuse you of something, like cultures that believe display of a feet being inappropriate. I’m not here to judge them or you disagreeing with them. Maybe the least controversial way is to say that person should be free to decide what they want to wear and which photos to make, not be ashamed of their body, but it’s completely useless in this situation.
Artist commentary is a line from this song: link. Where Marisa gets drugged on mushrooms and goes to Rinnosuke’s home. Words on the picture “I send up the scream”, indicate her screaming at the end because how wrecked she was. But even without this context it’s clear what’s happening here. Touhou lore also says that she leaves in a magic forest full of hallucinogenic or dangerous to human shrooms, which makes fanon of Marisa doing drugs isn’t something far distant from canon.
I check danbooru because I don’t believe in superiority of my opinion, which I believe is completely ok. I already admitted that your last post could be handled differently and explained reason of your ban at that time. At that point you just kicking a dead horse. And the average pretty much lies in the probably biggest tagged and rated image collection on the internet (tho with flaws which I will try to patch out), which can be conveniently consulted. And I see no reason why Touhou at LW or any other community have to conform with your “dozen communities” at ani.social. If I did invest into making a lot of communities with my set of rules, maybe not even based on danbooru, it wouldn’t be a valid reason for everyone to go with that too. But not completely unreasonable too.
I mention it only to illustrate that I am in fact intimately familiar with what is involved in being a moderator. Not some brain-dead “do what I say” user. There are many things I think you should change, but not because I say so. Because it makes sense.
Not because I think you should “submit to greater power” or something. That, I am not.
Since you keep wanting a label, I’ll give you one. You’re a prude. But that’s fine. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Only the way you handle people who aren’t, like me, needs some serious work. And tbh being a bit less of one would probably be good for you. Especially since you’re a moderator.
Along with your seemingly quite thin skin, I’m left questioning your suitability to be one. Another source of frustration for me, seeing as you are in a position to control something I care about.
Also, we’re having two different conversations, one about what nsfw is, and one about how to be a moderator.
Stop confusing my arguments about what is and isn’t nsfw as claims that I should get to decide what I’m allowed to post in your communities, without repercussions. Those are two different conversations.
Do I need to keep repeating that I ALWAYS and UNCONDITIONALLY adhere to the way the leaders of a given community want it to be run?
I blundered twice, but they were blunders. That is not up for discussion. You may interpret intent, but that does not change the fact that there was none.
For gods sake, I volunteered my active alts, and DIDN’T use one of my inactive ones to circumvent the ban. I got about as angry as one can get, and still didn’t blow up your inbox or community.
On moderation, you do not have grounds to ban me for as long as you have done, and you have no actual reason to believe I would not follow your rules were the ban shorter or cancelled.
The only thing my behaviour shows, is that I get mad when wronged, and complain when I think things can be done in a better way.
My animosity stemmed from perceived malice and incompetence on your part. The malice you all but admit to feeling, and allowing to affect your decisions. The incompetence I see was partly a misunderstanding, but also not entirely. Yet that is still far more forgivable, than the malice.
I check danbooru because I don’t believe in superiority of my opinion.
Neither do I. But you don’t respect my opinion, nor do you ask or seemingly care what your own users think.
In fact you basically admit to using what I’ve had to say as license to think less of me, to the point of considering me undeserving of fairness.
If I only ever used my own feelings, I’d be posting without ever using the nsfw tag. Everything I post is stuff I would and do use as wallpapers.
What I do and don’t tag is instead based on the comments and reports that I’ve received over the last year, as well as voting patterns. It is an attempt to tag things the way Lemmy specifically wants it. I’m about to hit 10 000 posts, so I think I have an ear for it by now.
Like I said in our original exchange, using nsfw tags when unnecessary harms community visibility and discovery. I am very intentionally trying to accelerate the growth of federated social media. As such, maximizing how well it does its jobs of congregating people into its communities, matters to me.
Maybe it doesn’t matter for you, but I think at least some of your users care about this.
As for your claim that image boards represent any kind of average, here I have to vehemently disagree. Image-boards are populated by a TINY minority, creating entries and entering metadata for each image. The voting system is in no way attached to the accuracy of this metadata, and generally, each entry is only ever created/edited/approved by two or three people.
That handful interprets the guideline for the formerly three, now four, ratings, not some “what does the average person feel” metric. And as I also mentioned in the original exchange, due to the differences of interpretation that those guidelines allow, each rating on danbooru has significant overlap with its neighbors, which becomes an issue when translating those ratings into a binary yes/no for another community of users.
My own script by default tags everything in the questionable and explicit category as nsfw, when posting to lemmy. But images rated general and sensitive, I set manually. Both because sensitive is often something no-one on lemmy will have an issue with, and because sometimes something obviously explicit has accidentally been rated general.
Their rating system is great “as a rule of thumb”. But it is fuzzy enough, that on the edge between sfw/nsfw you can’t just go “this goes here, that goes there”. It doesn’t match what users on lemmy expect. That lies somewhere in the middle of what danboorus moderators consider “sensitive”.
Image boards, next to an actual social media platform like the fediverse, are representative of absolutely nothing. They do a good job of creating internally consistent databases, maintained by a handful of users, but to claim that it is a representation of world averages is a massive reach.
It is like claiming Wikipedia is representative of the worlds general political leaning. It is a excellent internally consistent database of information. But it is not a good benchmark for what the average person thinks or believes. Because the average person does not write wikipedia articles.
In the same way, the average person is most certainly not rating and tagging images on image boards. What the average person DOES do, is report, comment and vote on social media.
I am removing the ban. I hope it will help resolve this situation. I admit that Marisa post could be handled differently and from third person view my actions can be viewed as unreasonable.
The way you write that suggests that you still think that you bringing here misogynism and “hangups concerning the human body” is completely fair and not to just put a label. So I would like to know where do they start and end, because it just seams that you are using these terms to frame peoples that does not agree with you. I don’t think that topics about being a moderator and sane online communications are much different.
The only thing my behaviour shows, is that I get mad when wronged, and complain when I think things can be done in a better way.
There is more to it. Like actively expressing how mad you are through your speech tone.
But you don’t respect my opinion, nor do you ask or seemingly care what your own users think.
Agreeing and respecting are separate things. Latest changes were done, because user suggested it, and you know it. Also every change to the rules (maybe except some old ones) is documented in post descriptions.
In fact you basically admit to using what I’ve had to say as license to think less of me
Yes, I judge peoples based on their actions. I said it explicitly. Based on what I have seen at the time I believe my actions were fair.
… the way Lemmy specifically wants it.
I’m not sure if there is a Lemmy as a group with uniform mindset. Maybe more like an individual instance or even community or group of communities. I won’t be surprised if political, tech and anime parts of Lemmy are like completely different worlds. The same story with Twitter, someone knows it for mind numbling political debates, someone is there to just look at some pics.
Like I said in our original exchange, using nsfw tags when unnecessary harms community visibility and discovery …
To what extent rules should be soft to minimize NSFW rated images, when tags are necessary? I still think that NSFW filter is useless and nobody knows what user might expect being NSFW or not, even if we are talking just about Lemmy userbase. Instead they should filter communities and instances, and have expectations what can be put under NSFW in particular community. That’s how it already is in Twitter and Mastodon.
Take that danbooru is might be moderated by small group with hot takes is understandable.
What the average person does do, is report, comment and vote on social media.
Then we at touhou at LW are fine. It’s just you not liking the fact that your disrespectful behavior wasn’t tolerated. I would rather stick with peoples who can voice their opinion without disparaging anyone or being snarky. And you doesn’t seem to acknowledge issues in what you have written under two last posts at LW or prove that what you free of these issues.
Yes. I think the world in general should get over its hangups around sexual and physiological reality, I think the villification of these, prevalent in many cultures, should end. Because it is harmful.
We don’t shy away from the reality of violence to anywhere near the same extent, and the world would not be better for it, if we did.
You’re not going to invalidate that view by claiming it’s merely an attempt to lable people who disagree.
Like actively expressing how mad you are through your speech tone.
I have no idea what you mean by this. Again, no emotion was involved in our initial discussion on my end, but apparently you thought there was some secret insult in it, then?
Please do not interpret meaning where none exists. That isn’t fair to me, or yourself.
I’m not sure if there is a Lemmy as a group with uniform mindset. Maybe more like an individual instance or even community or group of communities.
Every single post ever posted, shows up in the “all” feeds of all instances with at least one subscriber of the relevant community. Excluding users only browsing their subscription, or users that have a bunch of things blocked, everyone has a chance to see anything/everything. And therefore also to comment, report, or vote.
In fact, the more active a community becomes, the more people outside it will see its content.
Federated social media does not sequester users into separate “echo chambers”. There is always overlap. That’s kind of the point.
Then we at touhou at LW are fine.
Are you? Again, I dare you to announce how you’ve handled my ban.
It’s just you not liking the fact that your disrespectful behavior wasn’t tolerated.
I never got rude until after I thought I was unfairly banned.
Even then it was mostly because I thought you deliberately shut down communication. That was incorrect, and learning that I had no difficulty dropping the anger.
You’re the one having a hard time treating me fairly, despite learning my side of things.
I would rather stick with peoples who can voice their opinion without disparaging anyone or being snarky.
So would I. Unfortunately you mod a community I care about, so I’d rather have you do better, than put in the work of replacing you.
But, since you made that choice for me, here we are.
And you doesn’t seem to acknowledge issues in what you have written under two last posts at LW or prove that what you free of these issues.
And you apparently can’t handle dissent, or accept criticism that isnt sugar-coated.
People can still have a valid point, even if they’re pissed as hell while saying it.
If you get to let the “feeling” someone gives you affect whether you try to improve their behaviour, or just banish them outright, I get to write in a way that shows I’m annoyed, when I’m annoyed. That was the Marisa post.
Up to about a 30-day ban, and I’d have just gone “oops, guess I got on their nerves, gotta be nicer”.
A year-long ban was more of a “wow, this person needs to get over themself”.
I dropped the swears and agression the second you told me you never got most of my DMs. Why can’t you drop a year-long ban when you find out you were wrong about someone intentionally breaking the rules to screw with you?
As for whether I could have been nicer in the Youmu post… Sure I could have. But why should I have? I was neutral. I did not attack you. I presented arguments, not insults. I initially expressed disbelief, but only because that is what I felt. After that my goal was to understand your position, and if possible, change it.
There was no ill intent. I simply did my best to change someone’s mind. Asking me to be nice beyond that, is to ask for special treatment. Do you want special treatment?
Having someone try to change your mind can feel like an attack, but it isn’t one.
Perhaps you should ask yourself whether it is you who are refusing to take me seriously, because you’ve “labeled” me.
Earlier, you used the “your behaviour confirms my suspicions” argument which is a classic come-back when a troll goes off the rails, but that only remains valid with people who don’t calm down and come back to logic when shown they were wrong about something.
It’s also the kind of come-back I avoid using myself, because it’s a “I know what you are” argument. Meaning, it’s an attempt to invalidate what someone is saying, because of what they are.
Are you? Again, I dare you to announce how you’ve handled my ban.
I mean that expectations of what is NSFW align with comments and reports (you mentioned votes, but idk how there are related here), that’s what I am replying to. But ok, I will consider doing a post.
I think we can put an end here? There are still things that I do not agree with, but it can go indefinitely long and I’m not very motivated to continue in the near future.
Two in one response:
To @MentalEdge@ani.social
I didn’t know that banned person can’t view the community, that would probably made me reconsider the ban. And I don’t have any personal bans, so I see all messages. I did respond to you privately. And the only place where I didn’t, is the mentioned thread, because you was banned.
I recommend you to look again at your response when I asked you about being aware of the rules. If it was something like “I do, but I {didn’t check, overlooked it, etc}. Also I disagree with rules and will stop posting here”, it and post deletion wouldn’t look like another tantrum.
IIRC when I saw your comment about deleting your contributions, your posts and comments were already missing, so I banned that alt as you asked and thought there was nothing left to do. Initially, posts and comments weren’t purged, so peoples could better understand the reasoning of the ban and it didn’t look like a censorship. After about a week they appeared again, I thought you changed your mind, but now it’s just confusing why it happened.
I will stress it again: you was banned for deliberately breaking the rules. Not because of some incompatibility between you and them. No changes to the rules would automatically lead to your unban. Another person said that he doesn’t agree with danbooru rating (in a more polite way), but also don’t mind tagging them according to danbooru, so I decided to make them less strict to reduce back and forth with poster asking them to change tag, while giving control to mods and contributors to avoid bikeshedding rating decision to hell and prevent rating drifting too much away from danbooru. Initially, danbooru supposed to be playing such role and nobody was mad about it. If that was your idea, then I guess we agree on something.
@sag@lemm.ee mentioned your unban. I can do it, if you will address your strong antagonism. Else you can write something like “I request you to ban me if I make a post or comment in touhou@lemmy.world” to let you see posts and prevent you from exploiting any wiggle rooms, because I don’t know what you can pull of again. It’s insanely silly and I would want to avoid going this route.
To @sag@lemm.ee
I’m not opposed to automation tools, but not going to special case them in rules. And it isn’t the end of the world if post was tagged wrong, of course.
No you didn’t. You have sent me exactly one DM that was about not being able to ban my lemmy.world alt.
I sent you one message right after the ban. No reply.
I sent you another as you showed you were doubling down on your overreaction, that I wanted my contributions removed. No reply.
You even proceeded to restore content of mine after I sent those two messages about wanting my contributions gone!
At that point I was FUCKING LIVID!!!
No communication, and doing the LITERAL OPPOSITE OF WHAT I WAS ASKING when it came to my contributions.
Except the rules weren’t that EVERY post rated sensitive MUST be tagged. Even back then the wording was “as a rule of thumb”, and you had just yourself explained that a bunch of posts are incorrectly tagged “sensitive” on boorus due to the old “safe” tag.
By asking if I knew whether a far stricter version of the rules you made up on the spot was in effect, you came off like an absolute dick. I thought you were deliberately fucking with me! The image you commented on was in no way NSFW, so the only way I saw to interpret your comment was that you had singled me out because you hated my guts. No shit I chose my words to show I was annoyed and insulted.
Even if your understanding of the situation that I got a annoyed and threw a tantrum was correct, considering I complied immediately both times I realized I was in violation of your rules, that leaves you no valid reason to ban someone for a fucking year!
You made assumptions, and they were WRONG!!!
Now own up to it!
Unless you equate complaining about rules with deliberately breaking them, you have no argument. I wasn’t fibbing when I said I’d always do as a mod asks, but that doesn’t mean I won’t express my dissatisfaction with a nonsensical policy as I do so.
Would you even have checked the image rating if my posting script didn’t conveniently add links to danbooru in all my posts?
Another? That you wanted the Youmu post tagged nsfw surprised me, and I disagreed with your prudishness, so I tried to change your mind after complying with the rules. There was no heightened emotion involved. I was just presenting my problems with how you wanted things to work.
When you commented on the Marisa post, then I got annoyed, I thought you took our earlier discussion personally, and now wanted to get back at me by applying the rules over-zealously. When just pulling the post and going “dude really?” resulted in a 365-day ban, I was SURE you just hated me, and used the slightest excuse available to give me a giant middle finger!
Literally no-one is going to support your actions on this. They simply don’t know about it. I dare you to make and pin an honest post announcing your decision, posting every step in the drama, including this reply, and explaining your reasoning on how my actions are “deliberate” anything.
I didn’t actively choose to post that Marisa image, at that time. I found it and added it (this involves giving it a title, choosing communities to post to, and checking whether it should be tagged nsfw) to the collection my tool randomly posts from, weeks earlier.
Once you commented on it, I deleted the post, expressed annoyance that you’d want such an obviously SFW post tagged just because of its incorrect danbooru rating, and said I wouldn’t post anymore. How the fuck, do you get from that, to any potential rule-breaking I did being deliberate?
Further, how the hell does someone being so fed up with your nonsense policy, they’d rather stop posting, necessitate a ban? I wasn’t gonna post anymore, so the ban literally just PISSED ME THE FUCK OFF. You added insult to injury. How am I supposed to interpret that as anything other than gleeful malice?
Buddy. You don’t even know what a ban does? I can manually visit the community. That’s it. I can’t subscribe, I can’t vote, I can’t comment or post, and I can’t edit or even delete anything.
I have no idea what you’re referring to by my content going missing. I only had time to delete the Marisa post before my ban went live, after that I had to contact the admins to get my stuff removed several weeks later.
Frankly, I’m the one who wants an apology from you! I don’t want you anywhere near something I care about. I have zero trust left in your ability to be a competent moderator of anything, and especially not something I want to participate in.
The only way I’ll give up on making !touhou@lemmy.world irrelevant by replacing it with !touhou@ani.social is if you step down or acknowledge that banning me for an entire year was completely out of line, and that your given reason makes no sense whatsoever.
Otherwise, I’ll just replace you, so I can have a Touhou community I can actually endorse. Eventually.
You don’t need to.
The core point there is that I don’t choose what I post day to day. There was no deliberate action of any kind involved when I made that Marisa post, and I didn’t manually go to danbooru and add a link to it.
Coding it so that it tags every post rated sensitive on danbooru as NSFW will be the easiest thing ever. It just wont make sense, because then posts like this, this, this, and this, will be censored. And even then, for any images that can’t be found on danbooru, the one deciding will still be me, exactly like before. And I still have no idea how in the world anyone would consider the Marisa post NSFW.
If that’s genuinely what you want, I’ll do it. But it WILL raise eyebrows, and guess who I’ll point to when the inevitable “why is this tagged” comments start rolling in. I know they will, because like I wrote in another comment, I actually tried doing that for like a day once, and I got four such comments.
Didn’t receive it:
I have reverse search extension on both phone and pc. I checked it because she was drugged up so much that she had a head pain (judging by hands position and face expression) and tear coming from her eye. Which suggests “Hard or illegal drug use”. Another reason to check your post was the previous interaction with you, where you showed of your “haha moderator” mindset and basically called me a boomer who asks women to dress up and someone who accommodates peoples with “hangups concerning the human body”. It all really seemed like an attempt to push your opinion using labels. I wasn’t insulted by it, but it made a certain impression of you.
This whole discussion kinda proves that they were right.
No. I want you to fight your strong antagonism. After that I will have some hope that you won’t start doing something stupid again and will unban you without any restrictions. I will even be ok if you will continue on ani.social. It will be a bit unfortunate, but, alright. I admit that your last post probably could be handled differently and there were faults in the rules, likely they are still there. Honestly, I don’t think you deserve any apologies, though I’m not asking for any from you too.
Also, in light of most of my DMs apparently being eaten by federation issues, I’ll drop and retract the animosity. I’m sorry about that.
In return, I expect you to acknowledge that I did in fact attempt to reach you cordially.
My criticism of your policies and actions stands, however.
And, I was hardly referring to your assumptions about my charachter, but rather your assumption that my violation of any rules was at any point intentional. Which again, considering I do not actively choose what to post at any given minute, can’t possibly be the case.
And let me explain what I mean when I say that your response was out of line.
As moderators, our task is to enact and enforce rules. But enforcement doesn’t just mean deleting any and all offenders. We want to be as welcoming as possible while still not allowing the rules to be bent significantly out of true.
This means applying logic in our actions, doing things that are likely to modify behavior towards the ideal, so that near-compliance can become compliance, instead of lost activity.
You applied a ban so long, it will be EASIER for me to just supplant your community entirely, rather than wait it out and come back with improved behaviour.
…
I moderate over a dozen communities. You seriously think I have a “Haha moderator” mindset? Again. I wasn’t fibbing that I will unconditionally obey admins and moderators. Even if you made complaining against the rules, I’d comply.
And what you seem to be saying, is that you did take it personally?
That you did in fact allow it to affect your image of me in a way that made you to more rash, less considered, and potentially unfair in taking action against me?
I did not call you anything. I pointed out that your logic has parallel’s with some mysoginistic ways of thinking. Am I wrong? Maybe.
You’re free to think so, but if you want to change my mind on it, you’ll have to explain why. In fact, to disagree with someone, you should be able to explain that to yourself in a way that would convince most people.
And what was I supposed to do? Not explain why I thought your policy and that particular decision was too much in my view? You felt I tried to force something, but how can mere words do that? A user cannot force a moderator to do anything, except by convincing them. So I put my qualms into words. If you took offence, that was entirely unintended.
If you found yourself unable to dismantle my argument… Then I don’t know what to tell you. That’s the feeling you get when someone is trying to change your mind, and you haven’t figured out why they’re wrong yet. And if theyre right, you won’t ever figure it out (unless you opt to delude yourself, which I don’t think you’re the type to do).
Head pain? Drug use?
The artist has depicted complicated emotion, inspired by the song Hello, my friend. It’s right there in the danbooru artist commentary.
I think it is beautiful, but you say it’s obscene?!
And if you do genuinely find it obscene, why would you need to check the danbooru rating? Why do you defer to some random moderator on an image board if you yourself or your users have perfectly functioning senses of judgement?
Your new rules are far more sane, but you needed to be enforcing things like the words “rule of thumb” already meant something from the get-go. When telling users to edit their posts, tell them to do so because YOU think they should, not because some inconsistent third party arbitrarily says so. The former feels like a request to respect your sensibilities. The latter comes off as you being a stickler for pointless technicalities, and is therefore abrasive.
The trouble with art, is that it isn’t objective. Yet you refuse to have a discussion about where the averages of everyone in a group lies. You offload the work of evaluation to a fallible third party in danbooru, and you justify things retroactively with subjective interpretations that don’t even account for artist intent. And you clearly ignore other people voting on the points you and I make.
Not sure what are you trying to prove by saying how many communities you moderate. Peoples being against the group they belong to isn’t something surprising. Also constructing an opinion about a person judging by their actions is just an obvious way to do that imo.
What you did is just put a label on me, because in most cases it’s so easy, these label have strong associations and lift the responsibility of actually proving your point. I would like you explain where the “misogyny” starts and ends. Is that Youmu post located beside or far from the border on a “good” side? Or where is this border located? Naked photos are probably located on a NSFW side. If you apply dichotomy (though I don’t think NSFW-ness of pictures can always be compared with each other) you will approach to your own border. Whatever it will be, there will be someone to accuse you of something, like cultures that believe display of a feet being inappropriate. I’m not here to judge them or you disagreeing with them. Maybe the least controversial way is to say that person should be free to decide what they want to wear and which photos to make, not be ashamed of their body, but it’s completely useless in this situation.
Artist commentary is a line from this song: link. Where Marisa gets drugged on mushrooms and goes to Rinnosuke’s home. Words on the picture “I send up the scream”, indicate her screaming at the end because how wrecked she was. But even without this context it’s clear what’s happening here. Touhou lore also says that she leaves in a magic forest full of hallucinogenic or dangerous to human shrooms, which makes fanon of Marisa doing drugs isn’t something far distant from canon.
I check danbooru because I don’t believe in superiority of my opinion, which I believe is completely ok. I already admitted that your last post could be handled differently and explained reason of your ban at that time. At that point you just kicking a dead horse. And the average pretty much lies in the probably biggest tagged and rated image collection on the internet (tho with flaws which I will try to patch out), which can be conveniently consulted. And I see no reason why Touhou at LW or any other community have to conform with your “dozen communities” at ani.social. If I did invest into making a lot of communities with my set of rules, maybe not even based on danbooru, it wouldn’t be a valid reason for everyone to go with that too. But not completely unreasonable too.
I mention it only to illustrate that I am in fact intimately familiar with what is involved in being a moderator. Not some brain-dead “do what I say” user. There are many things I think you should change, but not because I say so. Because it makes sense.
Not because I think you should “submit to greater power” or something. That, I am not.
Since you keep wanting a label, I’ll give you one. You’re a prude. But that’s fine. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Only the way you handle people who aren’t, like me, needs some serious work. And tbh being a bit less of one would probably be good for you. Especially since you’re a moderator.
Along with your seemingly quite thin skin, I’m left questioning your suitability to be one. Another source of frustration for me, seeing as you are in a position to control something I care about.
Also, we’re having two different conversations, one about what nsfw is, and one about how to be a moderator.
Stop confusing my arguments about what is and isn’t nsfw as claims that I should get to decide what I’m allowed to post in your communities, without repercussions. Those are two different conversations.
Do I need to keep repeating that I ALWAYS and UNCONDITIONALLY adhere to the way the leaders of a given community want it to be run?
I blundered twice, but they were blunders. That is not up for discussion. You may interpret intent, but that does not change the fact that there was none.
For gods sake, I volunteered my active alts, and DIDN’T use one of my inactive ones to circumvent the ban. I got about as angry as one can get, and still didn’t blow up your inbox or community.
On moderation, you do not have grounds to ban me for as long as you have done, and you have no actual reason to believe I would not follow your rules were the ban shorter or cancelled.
The only thing my behaviour shows, is that I get mad when wronged, and complain when I think things can be done in a better way.
My animosity stemmed from perceived malice and incompetence on your part. The malice you all but admit to feeling, and allowing to affect your decisions. The incompetence I see was partly a misunderstanding, but also not entirely. Yet that is still far more forgivable, than the malice.
Neither do I. But you don’t respect my opinion, nor do you ask or seemingly care what your own users think.
In fact you basically admit to using what I’ve had to say as license to think less of me, to the point of considering me undeserving of fairness.
If I only ever used my own feelings, I’d be posting without ever using the nsfw tag. Everything I post is stuff I would and do use as wallpapers.
What I do and don’t tag is instead based on the comments and reports that I’ve received over the last year, as well as voting patterns. It is an attempt to tag things the way Lemmy specifically wants it. I’m about to hit 10 000 posts, so I think I have an ear for it by now.
Like I said in our original exchange, using nsfw tags when unnecessary harms community visibility and discovery. I am very intentionally trying to accelerate the growth of federated social media. As such, maximizing how well it does its jobs of congregating people into its communities, matters to me.
Maybe it doesn’t matter for you, but I think at least some of your users care about this.
As for your claim that image boards represent any kind of average, here I have to vehemently disagree. Image-boards are populated by a TINY minority, creating entries and entering metadata for each image. The voting system is in no way attached to the accuracy of this metadata, and generally, each entry is only ever created/edited/approved by two or three people.
That handful interprets the guideline for the formerly three, now four, ratings, not some “what does the average person feel” metric. And as I also mentioned in the original exchange, due to the differences of interpretation that those guidelines allow, each rating on danbooru has significant overlap with its neighbors, which becomes an issue when translating those ratings into a binary yes/no for another community of users.
My own script by default tags everything in the questionable and explicit category as nsfw, when posting to lemmy. But images rated general and sensitive, I set manually. Both because sensitive is often something no-one on lemmy will have an issue with, and because sometimes something obviously explicit has accidentally been rated general.
Their rating system is great “as a rule of thumb”. But it is fuzzy enough, that on the edge between sfw/nsfw you can’t just go “this goes here, that goes there”. It doesn’t match what users on lemmy expect. That lies somewhere in the middle of what danboorus moderators consider “sensitive”.
Image boards, next to an actual social media platform like the fediverse, are representative of absolutely nothing. They do a good job of creating internally consistent databases, maintained by a handful of users, but to claim that it is a representation of world averages is a massive reach.
It is like claiming Wikipedia is representative of the worlds general political leaning. It is a excellent internally consistent database of information. But it is not a good benchmark for what the average person thinks or believes. Because the average person does not write wikipedia articles.
In the same way, the average person is most certainly not rating and tagging images on image boards. What the average person DOES do, is report, comment and vote on social media.
I am removing the ban. I hope it will help resolve this situation. I admit that Marisa post could be handled differently and from third person view my actions can be viewed as unreasonable.
Thank you.
I will need to think about whether I want to contribute to it anymore, but at least I can sub and upvote posts again.
The way you write that suggests that you still think that you bringing here misogynism and “hangups concerning the human body” is completely fair and not to just put a label. So I would like to know where do they start and end, because it just seams that you are using these terms to frame peoples that does not agree with you. I don’t think that topics about being a moderator and sane online communications are much different.
There is more to it. Like actively expressing how mad you are through your speech tone.
Agreeing and respecting are separate things. Latest changes were done, because user suggested it, and you know it. Also every change to the rules (maybe except some old ones) is documented in post descriptions.
Yes, I judge peoples based on their actions. I said it explicitly. Based on what I have seen at the time I believe my actions were fair.
I’m not sure if there is a Lemmy as a group with uniform mindset. Maybe more like an individual instance or even community or group of communities. I won’t be surprised if political, tech and anime parts of Lemmy are like completely different worlds. The same story with Twitter, someone knows it for mind numbling political debates, someone is there to just look at some pics.
To what extent rules should be soft to minimize NSFW rated images, when tags are necessary? I still think that NSFW filter is useless and nobody knows what user might expect being NSFW or not, even if we are talking just about Lemmy userbase. Instead they should filter communities and instances, and have expectations what can be put under NSFW in particular community. That’s how it already is in Twitter and Mastodon.
Take that danbooru is might be moderated by small group with hot takes is understandable.
Then we at touhou at LW are fine. It’s just you not liking the fact that your disrespectful behavior wasn’t tolerated. I would rather stick with peoples who can voice their opinion without disparaging anyone or being snarky. And you doesn’t seem to acknowledge issues in what you have written under two last posts at LW or prove that what you free of these issues.
Yes. I think the world in general should get over its hangups around sexual and physiological reality, I think the villification of these, prevalent in many cultures, should end. Because it is harmful.
We don’t shy away from the reality of violence to anywhere near the same extent, and the world would not be better for it, if we did.
You’re not going to invalidate that view by claiming it’s merely an attempt to lable people who disagree.
I have no idea what you mean by this. Again, no emotion was involved in our initial discussion on my end, but apparently you thought there was some secret insult in it, then?
Please do not interpret meaning where none exists. That isn’t fair to me, or yourself.
Every single post ever posted, shows up in the “all” feeds of all instances with at least one subscriber of the relevant community. Excluding users only browsing their subscription, or users that have a bunch of things blocked, everyone has a chance to see anything/everything. And therefore also to comment, report, or vote.
In fact, the more active a community becomes, the more people outside it will see its content.
Federated social media does not sequester users into separate “echo chambers”. There is always overlap. That’s kind of the point.
Are you? Again, I dare you to announce how you’ve handled my ban.
I never got rude until after I thought I was unfairly banned.
Even then it was mostly because I thought you deliberately shut down communication. That was incorrect, and learning that I had no difficulty dropping the anger.
You’re the one having a hard time treating me fairly, despite learning my side of things.
So would I. Unfortunately you mod a community I care about, so I’d rather have you do better, than put in the work of replacing you.
But, since you made that choice for me, here we are.
And you apparently can’t handle dissent, or accept criticism that isnt sugar-coated.
People can still have a valid point, even if they’re pissed as hell while saying it.
If you get to let the “feeling” someone gives you affect whether you try to improve their behaviour, or just banish them outright, I get to write in a way that shows I’m annoyed, when I’m annoyed. That was the Marisa post.
Up to about a 30-day ban, and I’d have just gone “oops, guess I got on their nerves, gotta be nicer”.
A year-long ban was more of a “wow, this person needs to get over themself”.
I dropped the swears and agression the second you told me you never got most of my DMs. Why can’t you drop a year-long ban when you find out you were wrong about someone intentionally breaking the rules to screw with you?
As for whether I could have been nicer in the Youmu post… Sure I could have. But why should I have? I was neutral. I did not attack you. I presented arguments, not insults. I initially expressed disbelief, but only because that is what I felt. After that my goal was to understand your position, and if possible, change it.
There was no ill intent. I simply did my best to change someone’s mind. Asking me to be nice beyond that, is to ask for special treatment. Do you want special treatment?
Having someone try to change your mind can feel like an attack, but it isn’t one.
Perhaps you should ask yourself whether it is you who are refusing to take me seriously, because you’ve “labeled” me.
Earlier, you used the “your behaviour confirms my suspicions” argument which is a classic come-back when a troll goes off the rails, but that only remains valid with people who don’t calm down and come back to logic when shown they were wrong about something.
It’s also the kind of come-back I avoid using myself, because it’s a “I know what you are” argument. Meaning, it’s an attempt to invalidate what someone is saying, because of what they are.
That is not a valid counterargument.
I mean that expectations of what is NSFW align with comments and reports (you mentioned votes, but idk how there are related here), that’s what I am replying to. But ok, I will consider doing a post.
I think we can put an end here? There are still things that I do not agree with, but it can go indefinitely long and I’m not very motivated to continue in the near future.