I just happen to eat a vegan diet because I travel a lot and refuse to pay people to do things to animals that I wouldn’t feel morally comfortable doing myself. Maybe if I settle down somewhere, I would find a farm that allows me to personally verify the ethical treatment of the animals. I don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything, though. I’m in great shape, not deficient in anything, and am routinely assumed to be 10 years younger than I am.
From my experience, the people who think meat is required to be healthy usually have the worst diets and are addicted to eating the most low quality processed garbage meat available. It’s never people in good shape that go on and on about how crucial meat is.
I’m really looking forward to cultured meats for similar reasons. I take no issue with one animal (human) hunting another wild animal to eat its meat for sustenance - that’s just biology bro - but our farming practices have just become insanely abhorrent with regards to animal ethics. I can’t wait until some bioengineer makes my minced meat in a lab with no animal cruelty involved because while I hate torturing animals, I love me some meat.
In the mean time, there’s all kinds of great plant-based meats and such along with just making other good dishes without any plant-based meats. If we just continue to wait for cultured meat, harm will continue to be done
That’s totally fair, but I generally don’t like to ascribe to the idea that we as individuals need to take on responsibility for solving issues that are systemic in nature. I think anyone doing anything they can to make an impact is great and should absolutely be lauded, but we should never be placing or accepting responsibility for solving these issues onto individuals.
I have coeliac disease, which makes most plant-based meat alternatives off-the-menu because of the use of wheat or barley, so I don’t tend to feel so bad for consuming meat a few nights a week. My body struggles to maintain healthy vitamin levels at the best of times, so I have to compensate how I can and balance the ethics of the matter. I’m also not rich, which means I can’t afford a high-quality vegetarian or vegan diet right now. For someone like me, waiting for cultured meats is the best I can do right now unless a cure for autoimmune diseases is found.
For the gluten part, most of the major plant-based meats are gluten free: beyond is, impossible is, etc. They are also not the only option of course either as dishes don’t need to use any plant-based meats and can say be bean based or lentil based
For the individual part, the problem is that as long as people expect to consume meat, dairy, etc. in mass, factory farming is the invariable outcome. There really isn’t much way away around requiring changes to consumption levels. For instance, something like grass-fed production couldn’t even supply a third of beef production, and would even raise emissions as well
We model a nationwide transition [in the US] from grain- to grass-finishing systems using demographics of present-day beef cattle. In order to produce the same quantity of beef as the present-day system, we find that a nationwide shift to exclusively grass-fed beef would require increasing the national cattle herd from 77 to 100 million cattle, an increase of 30%. We also find that the current pastureland grass resource can support only 27% of the current beef supply (27 million cattle), an amount 30% smaller than prior estimates
[…]
If beef consumption is not reduced and is instead satisfied by greater imports of grass-fed beef, a switch to purely grass-fed systems would likely result in higher environmental costs, including higher overall
methane emissions. Thus, only reductions in beef consumption can guarantee reductions in the environmental impact of US food systems.
Advice regarding product availability doesn’t always translate well on a universally accessible platform - for instance where I’m located in Australia I’d have to drive over 50km to my nearest Beyond Meat stockist and both Beyond and Impossible are around 3-4 times the cost of their true meat alternatives. Sadly my economic situation doesn’t allow me to pay $40-$50/kg for plant-based meat alternatives, and any ones that are near affordable are stuffed full of wheat or flavoured with barley. Another important note to remember is that the definition of ‘gluten-free’ varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so not all products that are labelled gluten-free in one market can be said to be the same in other markets.
There are definitely ways to balance a vegetarian or vegan diet well enough to manage your nutrient intake, however this requires a lot of fresh foods that are also very expensive where I am. I’m also trying to follow my dietician’s advice who recommended that I eat red meat, white meat and fish once each per week as my body struggles with nutrient intake.
I get where you’re coming from - if everyone tomorrow halved their meat intake the entire industry would collapse as it is by definition a demand-driven industry, but I’m afraid all I can do for my part is reduce my meat intake to where I have. I also don’t think it’s fair for me to place responsibility on myself to fix an issue that requires regulatory and governmental intervention to affect real change.
If you really go vegan don’t forget to take B12 vitamin supplements. It’s very VITAL and really the only supplement you need if your diet is diverse enough.
Thanks! I’ve eaten vegan for about 5 years, and B12 is the only supplement that I make sure I’m always taking. I’ve gotten some nutrient blood tests over the years to make sure things are fine. Right now, I’m also taking magnesium and omega3s. I was recently taking vitamin D as well, but I’ve been doing long-distance hiking lately and been outside for 16 hours a day, so I think my vitamin D is doing alright.
A nurse was actually just telling me about how crucial B12 is, and not in a vegan context, but actually because the “whippets” drug depletes it like crazy and it can cause people to just completely collapse.
I’m really interesting in how you manage to keep a vegan diet while travelling. Is it abroad? Do you eat food from locals? I would not feel comfortable refusing food offered by people because it’s animal based yet I would stick to veganism. To be honest, I’m incapable of doing this. I think I would starve.
I find it already difficult to find restaurants when travelling. I do not regret my choice to go vegan but sometimes I feel like I’m missing out when I’m in a different country and I want to discover the culture.
Plus it makes day planning much harder.
Yes, I pretty much exclusively travel abroad. I really don’t find it difficult anymore. Maybe early on, it was annoying, but now I don’t even think much about it.
I don’t regret missing out on the aspect of cultures where people abuse those less fortunate. There are many aspects of peoples lives and cultures that I don’t take part in, but I still have a rich experience when visiting them. I don’t intimidate women into being uneducated, or try to take child brides, or mutilate the genitals of babies, or get blackout drunk and provoke fights, or many other things that are a part of various cultures that are just not for me.
I understand that different people are in different economic situations, and for some people, they have no choice but to eat processed factory farm products to be more healthy than without. It is a shame that that is the case, but I don’t see people in that situation as being immoral. They just have their own situation to weigh.
On the practical side of things, it is easy to refuse food, I am fine just saying that I can’t take it for health reasons if I dont want to get into it with someone. If I want restaurant food, it is generally easy to find Thai, Indian, or to eat a simple salad. Honestly, almost all decent sized cities have specifically vegan restaurants these days, and even more have restaurants with some vegan options. On top of that, I try to do a few week long water fasts each year, so If I ever do find myself in a situation where I absolutely can’t eat a meal or something, it really doesn’t bother me much.
I do eat food from locals. Even the most meat obsessed cultures still have plenty of traditional foods that don’t include animal products. If I am around locals who want to make food for me, then I often get to have a wide range of dishes because they want to make sure I am full. I am very fortunate to be able to travel like I do, so not squeezing every ounce of pleasure out of the misery of others is a small price for me to pay.
My other response to you was so long-winded, and there was even more that I wrote that maybe wasn’t directly relevant to your comment, so I removed it. I did write it, though, so I figure I’ll just go ahead and paste it here:
I’m actually not even philosophically strictly vegan, although I am vegan in practice. I just weigh the cost/benefit when making decisions. I decide if the questionable nutritional benefit of drugged up animal parts and 20 minutes of pleasure to me is worth a lifetime of cruel conditions and misery for this animal. It just happens to be the case for me personally that I think whatever potential health benefit I get from it isn’t worth such an extreme cost to the animal since I am fortunate enough to be able mantain a healthy body without that. I would feel much better if I could verify that the animal has had a happy life.
For instance, in scotland, there are sheep that are free to roam the unfenced highlands anywhere they like with their babies, and they choose to go back to where the farmer they are used to feeds them in the winters. When they get old, the farmer will quickly kill them, and this is very much in line with their life over countless generations. Philosophically, eating that kind of meat has a much lower cost to me than the cruel factory farms where much meat/animal products come from. That said, at this point in my life, even that cost is not worth it to me, but maybe some day that will change. I can see the argument that maybe killing them at a certain point could be seen as mercy, but still, I’d just rather not at this point in my life.
That was a very interesting read. Thank you! I share a lot of thought with your philosophy and I’m confident that is what most vegans think too.
I am too aware and grateful to be able to choose my diet. I don’t blame people who have no choice but to use animals to make a living. Though I sometimes regret that people in developed countries don’t really think about what they put in their plate.
Yeah, I feel lucky to have had it occur to me to think about this stuff. I can’t put into words what a weight was lifted when I stopped supporting that stuff. It is just an all-around emotional lightness that permeates every aspect of my life. It’s like discovering that I had been dragging a sack of rocks for so long that I had just assumed it was a part of life. I can remember how bad it was, and trying to convey this to people always seems to be taken the wrong way. I don’t know why I got lucky in this way, and it is very frustrating to be unable to explain how much better it is since it really feels like a choice that most people could make if they only knew.
Not the person you asked, but in my experience, when I travel I will go to grocery stores often. I personally love seeing what grocery stores are like in other countries, so that ends up being quite a fun experience (for me). But more importantly- it lets you stock up on stuff that you can eat. You have to learn what foods are enjoyable for you to consume cold, or with minimal prep, but in the end it’s not too difficult.
True!
I’ve only done a few hiking/travel adventures, and for those I’m usually backpacking. So my food is dehydrated and packed with me. But that post-trek meal can be tricky!
I just happen to eat a vegan diet because I travel a lot and refuse to pay people to do things to animals that I wouldn’t feel morally comfortable doing myself. Maybe if I settle down somewhere, I would find a farm that allows me to personally verify the ethical treatment of the animals. I don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything, though. I’m in great shape, not deficient in anything, and am routinely assumed to be 10 years younger than I am.
From my experience, the people who think meat is required to be healthy usually have the worst diets and are addicted to eating the most low quality processed garbage meat available. It’s never people in good shape that go on and on about how crucial meat is.
I’m really looking forward to cultured meats for similar reasons. I take no issue with one animal (human) hunting another wild animal to eat its meat for sustenance - that’s just biology bro - but our farming practices have just become insanely abhorrent with regards to animal ethics. I can’t wait until some bioengineer makes my minced meat in a lab with no animal cruelty involved because while I hate torturing animals, I love me some meat.
In the mean time, there’s all kinds of great plant-based meats and such along with just making other good dishes without any plant-based meats. If we just continue to wait for cultured meat, harm will continue to be done
That’s totally fair, but I generally don’t like to ascribe to the idea that we as individuals need to take on responsibility for solving issues that are systemic in nature. I think anyone doing anything they can to make an impact is great and should absolutely be lauded, but we should never be placing or accepting responsibility for solving these issues onto individuals.
I have coeliac disease, which makes most plant-based meat alternatives off-the-menu because of the use of wheat or barley, so I don’t tend to feel so bad for consuming meat a few nights a week. My body struggles to maintain healthy vitamin levels at the best of times, so I have to compensate how I can and balance the ethics of the matter. I’m also not rich, which means I can’t afford a high-quality vegetarian or vegan diet right now. For someone like me, waiting for cultured meats is the best I can do right now unless a cure for autoimmune diseases is found.
For the gluten part, most of the major plant-based meats are gluten free: beyond is, impossible is, etc. They are also not the only option of course either as dishes don’t need to use any plant-based meats and can say be bean based or lentil based
For the individual part, the problem is that as long as people expect to consume meat, dairy, etc. in mass, factory farming is the invariable outcome. There really isn’t much way away around requiring changes to consumption levels. For instance, something like grass-fed production couldn’t even supply a third of beef production, and would even raise emissions as well
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aad401
Advice regarding product availability doesn’t always translate well on a universally accessible platform - for instance where I’m located in Australia I’d have to drive over 50km to my nearest Beyond Meat stockist and both Beyond and Impossible are around 3-4 times the cost of their true meat alternatives. Sadly my economic situation doesn’t allow me to pay $40-$50/kg for plant-based meat alternatives, and any ones that are near affordable are stuffed full of wheat or flavoured with barley. Another important note to remember is that the definition of ‘gluten-free’ varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so not all products that are labelled gluten-free in one market can be said to be the same in other markets.
There are definitely ways to balance a vegetarian or vegan diet well enough to manage your nutrient intake, however this requires a lot of fresh foods that are also very expensive where I am. I’m also trying to follow my dietician’s advice who recommended that I eat red meat, white meat and fish once each per week as my body struggles with nutrient intake.
I get where you’re coming from - if everyone tomorrow halved their meat intake the entire industry would collapse as it is by definition a demand-driven industry, but I’m afraid all I can do for my part is reduce my meat intake to where I have. I also don’t think it’s fair for me to place responsibility on myself to fix an issue that requires regulatory and governmental intervention to affect real change.
If you really go vegan don’t forget to take B12 vitamin supplements. It’s very VITAL and really the only supplement you need if your diet is diverse enough.
Thanks! I’ve eaten vegan for about 5 years, and B12 is the only supplement that I make sure I’m always taking. I’ve gotten some nutrient blood tests over the years to make sure things are fine. Right now, I’m also taking magnesium and omega3s. I was recently taking vitamin D as well, but I’ve been doing long-distance hiking lately and been outside for 16 hours a day, so I think my vitamin D is doing alright.
A nurse was actually just telling me about how crucial B12 is, and not in a vegan context, but actually because the “whippets” drug depletes it like crazy and it can cause people to just completely collapse.
I’m really interesting in how you manage to keep a vegan diet while travelling. Is it abroad? Do you eat food from locals? I would not feel comfortable refusing food offered by people because it’s animal based yet I would stick to veganism. To be honest, I’m incapable of doing this. I think I would starve. I find it already difficult to find restaurants when travelling. I do not regret my choice to go vegan but sometimes I feel like I’m missing out when I’m in a different country and I want to discover the culture. Plus it makes day planning much harder.
Yes, I pretty much exclusively travel abroad. I really don’t find it difficult anymore. Maybe early on, it was annoying, but now I don’t even think much about it.
I don’t regret missing out on the aspect of cultures where people abuse those less fortunate. There are many aspects of peoples lives and cultures that I don’t take part in, but I still have a rich experience when visiting them. I don’t intimidate women into being uneducated, or try to take child brides, or mutilate the genitals of babies, or get blackout drunk and provoke fights, or many other things that are a part of various cultures that are just not for me.
I understand that different people are in different economic situations, and for some people, they have no choice but to eat processed factory farm products to be more healthy than without. It is a shame that that is the case, but I don’t see people in that situation as being immoral. They just have their own situation to weigh.
On the practical side of things, it is easy to refuse food, I am fine just saying that I can’t take it for health reasons if I dont want to get into it with someone. If I want restaurant food, it is generally easy to find Thai, Indian, or to eat a simple salad. Honestly, almost all decent sized cities have specifically vegan restaurants these days, and even more have restaurants with some vegan options. On top of that, I try to do a few week long water fasts each year, so If I ever do find myself in a situation where I absolutely can’t eat a meal or something, it really doesn’t bother me much.
I do eat food from locals. Even the most meat obsessed cultures still have plenty of traditional foods that don’t include animal products. If I am around locals who want to make food for me, then I often get to have a wide range of dishes because they want to make sure I am full. I am very fortunate to be able to travel like I do, so not squeezing every ounce of pleasure out of the misery of others is a small price for me to pay.
My other response to you was so long-winded, and there was even more that I wrote that maybe wasn’t directly relevant to your comment, so I removed it. I did write it, though, so I figure I’ll just go ahead and paste it here:
I’m actually not even philosophically strictly vegan, although I am vegan in practice. I just weigh the cost/benefit when making decisions. I decide if the questionable nutritional benefit of drugged up animal parts and 20 minutes of pleasure to me is worth a lifetime of cruel conditions and misery for this animal. It just happens to be the case for me personally that I think whatever potential health benefit I get from it isn’t worth such an extreme cost to the animal since I am fortunate enough to be able mantain a healthy body without that. I would feel much better if I could verify that the animal has had a happy life.
For instance, in scotland, there are sheep that are free to roam the unfenced highlands anywhere they like with their babies, and they choose to go back to where the farmer they are used to feeds them in the winters. When they get old, the farmer will quickly kill them, and this is very much in line with their life over countless generations. Philosophically, eating that kind of meat has a much lower cost to me than the cruel factory farms where much meat/animal products come from. That said, at this point in my life, even that cost is not worth it to me, but maybe some day that will change. I can see the argument that maybe killing them at a certain point could be seen as mercy, but still, I’d just rather not at this point in my life.
That was a very interesting read. Thank you! I share a lot of thought with your philosophy and I’m confident that is what most vegans think too. I am too aware and grateful to be able to choose my diet. I don’t blame people who have no choice but to use animals to make a living. Though I sometimes regret that people in developed countries don’t really think about what they put in their plate.
Yeah, I feel lucky to have had it occur to me to think about this stuff. I can’t put into words what a weight was lifted when I stopped supporting that stuff. It is just an all-around emotional lightness that permeates every aspect of my life. It’s like discovering that I had been dragging a sack of rocks for so long that I had just assumed it was a part of life. I can remember how bad it was, and trying to convey this to people always seems to be taken the wrong way. I don’t know why I got lucky in this way, and it is very frustrating to be unable to explain how much better it is since it really feels like a choice that most people could make if they only knew.
Not the person you asked, but in my experience, when I travel I will go to grocery stores often. I personally love seeing what grocery stores are like in other countries, so that ends up being quite a fun experience (for me). But more importantly- it lets you stock up on stuff that you can eat. You have to learn what foods are enjoyable for you to consume cold, or with minimal prep, but in the end it’s not too difficult.
Yes this what I do too. But I mostly visit cities so that’s not too difficult. Hiking on the other end, that must be hard.
True! I’ve only done a few hiking/travel adventures, and for those I’m usually backpacking. So my food is dehydrated and packed with me. But that post-trek meal can be tricky!