Mitch McConell says the quiet part out loud.
Exact full quote from CNN:
āPeople think, increasingly it appears, that we shouldnāt be doing this. Well, let me start by saying we havenāt lost a single American in this war,ā McConnell said. āMost of the money that we spend related to Ukraine is actually spent in the US, replenishing weapons, more modern weapons. So itās actually employing people here and improving our own military for what may lie ahead.ā
cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/4085063
Kind of amazing how liberals will tell themselves little stories and even believethem rather than actually having to learn something.
You should be honest with yourself and at least become familiar with the context of the demands before forming an opinion. Iāll give you a hint: UA does have a very real Nazi problem that is directly connected to RFās invasion.
These are open-ended questions and a proper explanation would take a long time. And letās just say Iām dubious that youāre actually curious. The (over)simple answer is that theyāre taking a deal to be subservient to the United States, which usually requires their political class, and therefore economic ruling class, to see an interest in doing do. Not that theyāre correct - the US is slowly deindustrializing its European allies as we speak. The reason why those interests won out? Those are specific historical stories. Try answering your own question but for Ukraineās toying with NAT membership. What led to the change in their political class?
Case in point that youāre not curious in any real answers.
Liberals often use cartoonish examples to understand a world for which their knowledge and ideology are inadequate.
Oh, Iām liberal now. Weird as I was a fascist just before I left reddit. In a few hours someone will call me a communist.
Iām very honest with myself. I also try to not bullshit myself into believing itās only an Ukraine problem.
Russia didnāt invade Crimea and then the Donbas region in 2014 because of Nazis. After Yanukovych weirdly reverted his position on Europe (European UnionāUkraine Association Agreement) and got kicked out, Russia decided to invade to support all those āRussian speakersā. Of course, there was even a referendum, but as Igor Girkin said, they had the guns and politicians did as they were told.
People like to forget that far-right groups like the Azov Battalion and some of far-left/anarchist groups that joined the fight were only created after the invasion, after the Ukrainian army completely failed to do their job. Itās as if the ultra-nationalist and people with more extreme views in general are the first to react to an aggression against their country! /s
But yes, Ukraine had ānazisā, but so did Russia. I recommend reading about people like Aleksandr Dugin (and his views), which seems to be liked even by Putin himself. As a space fan and a fan of some of the Soviet accomplishments, I couldnāt help but notice that when the war started, the boss of Roscosmos was Dmitry Rogozinā¦ an old member of the Russian National Unity party, which had some āinterestingā views. In fact, hereās a picture of young Rogozin with the flag of the party in the background. Iāll also give you a hint: theyāre nazi as fuck.
I guess we need to invade Russia, right? And make some demands where Russia gives away part of their territoryā¦ at least thatās what the very well informed and smart people such as yourself think should happen? Or this only applies to when Russia has a problem with someone else?
Also, in 2019 the far-right party (Svoboda) received 2.16% of the votes in the whole country. Not even 3%. And then Russia comes in, invades Ukraine again and transforms Azov into national heroes. Well, good fucking job Russia! Iām sure that helps reducing support for nazis. /s
If thatās the case, then Putin must be part of the conspiracy? The guy managed to give a new life to the alliance and even recruited 2 new countries where popular support to joining used to be really low. Thereās no way heās helping NATO so much without being part of all that. Surely you can see the guy is a plant?
Or maybe thereās a simpler explanation (Occamās razor, for the cool kids).
Maybe people read what Russian politicians say, look at the size of their country, remember what happened during the days of the Soviet Union (and now at what happened to Ukraine) and say: āmaybe we should be friends with that big guy over there, just in case the local bully decides to invade usā.
Of course my lIbErAl mind is too dumb to understand high level politics like you do, but if one reads Putinās On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians and Address concerning the events in Ukraine, itās not that hard to imagine that thereās a much simpler reason.
What lead to the change in Ukraineās political class? Other than Yanukovychās reversal and people getting pissed? I donāt know. If youāre suggesting any foul play, Iād like to remind you that Russia intervened directly in Belarus and Kazakhstan, so apparently thatās all good.
Iām curious, thatās why I sometimes actually read what Mr Putin says, am aware of his obsession with Peter the Great and his conquest of the Azov sea, etc. I also watch a bit of Russian television as they have interesting views on countries around them. Iām not even talking about weekly threats of nuking European cities or higher ups at Russia Today suggesting that Ukrainian kids should be killed in a riverā¦ Did you know that Kazakhstan now has a lot of āethnic Russiansā in need of protection? A bit weird since everything was fine until they stopped playing ball with Russiaā¦
To know the real answers you canāt filter out everything that doesnāt fit your view. You have people like Putin making up excuses for his view that Ukraine is not really a proper countryā¦ yet you decide not to read it and to outright ignore it. And Iām the dumb guy who doesnāt want real answers?
My apologies, let me make it easier for you:
Russia, which is not governed by morons, decided to invade Ukraine to accomplish certain objectives. They knew what they were doing, you donāt need to make excuses up to defend their actions.
Like any major power, they donāt give a fuck about Ukraine or the people that live in Ukraine. Itās not a nice thing, but hey, it is what it is.
No, Russia didnāt have to invade. No, Ukraine wasnāt going to invade Russia (nuclear obviously, plus they struggle to take control of their own territoryā¦). And no, thereās no way in hell 2014 Ukraine was going to join NATO (theyāve been trying since the early 2000āsā¦).
Anyway, if you want to support them, then fine. Just donāt try to come up with bs excuses for what theyāre doing. You like Russia and you like what theyāre doing. I on the other hand donāt agree with theyāre doing and also have a similar position when other countries do the same, so you can see why I donāt support their invasion of Ukraine.
Fascism is just an offshoot of liberalism so this isnāt a zinger
You definitely tell stories and deflect and make guesses but present them as if theyāre fact so gonna disagree with you, champ
Yeah duh, or at least not proximally or the exact Nazis being referred to. This feels like saying things just to feel like youāre lecturing but it doesnāt mean anything. The next two paragraphs donāt address what I said or answer my question.
Cool, what impact does that have re: Russiaās demand? Itās a pretty liberal thing to try to come up with pointless gotchas or like entire states are hypocritical or something so you donāt need to look any deeper. Are you able to provide even the most basic explanation for why the RF would want UA to hand over/imprison their Nazis?
Ahahahahahahaha
Already did. First in 1918, then in the early 90s (it was called the shock doctrine).
Anyways, you seem to again be arguing with some liberal in your head that bases everything on abstract rules and gotchas. Has nothing to do with me or anything Iāve said.
Congratulations youāve caught up with liberal arguments from 2022. It is, in fact, peak liberalism to think that election results are the same as political power, or power in general. Iām sure the Roma murdered in tacitly state-supported pogroms are delighted to know Svoboda only got a few percent in an election.
Anyways, you failed to answer my question. Iām not even a tough grader. Just looking for very basic material context, and you couldnāt do it. I even gave you a hint!
This makes no sense.
This is a form of liberalism called idealism, and itās as hilarious as it is wrong. People just got together, for no clear reason, and thought a bunch until change happened. Actually donāt mention āfor no clear reasonā, because this begins the thought of, āwell why would I need to think about material causes?ā, which puts you into dangerous territory of reading or understanding something before having an opinion on it. Best to just make shit up and have little cartoon characters voice your opinions and tell little stories, right?
You are perfectly capable of understanding anything Iāve mentioned. Youāre unwilling and uninterested, and are a victim of propaganda and your society. If you chose honesty, things would go a lot better, but you so far you seem unable to drop the habit of making things up to fill in the gaps. Very defensive behavior, which is typical for Reddit-brained liberlaism.
Reading Putin and extracting value from it requires already knowing all of the things he mentions, as he is just a singular politician struggling in his own interest, attempting to make very particular cases to very particular audiences. I amā¦ dubious that any of that happened here.
You skimmed all of that and failed to notice the coup, lol.
Your behavior says the exact opposite
Ahahahahahahaha
See the gears turning. Youāve been criticized! What to say in response? Hmmā¦ well this Maoo jerk just said you used simplistic examples because you canāt understand whatās happening on the planet due to ignorance and worldview. Thatās a meany thing to say! Better turn toā¦ uhā¦ condescension? Yeah, and say āIāll make it simplerā! Thatāll get 'em!
Because I probably do have to spell it out: I said you were being simplistic. Making it simpler is dunking on yourself.
You jumped into this thread to flail around because you didnāt understand what those were, and continue to miss the most basic points made about them, lol. No wonder this is left vague.
Now youāre doing the āIām rubber youāre glueā thing. Amazing how contradiction brings out the inner child in liberals.
Who are the ātheyā? Be specific. This will help you on your journey on learning how to know things.
According to what logic? Who makes any country invade another? This type of thinking isnāt even appropriate for the category of thing weāre talking about. Iām giving you babyās first realpolitik here and nothing is sinking in.
lol who on earth are you talking to? Do you think I said anything like that? If not, tell me who youāre talking to. Be specific. Does the person in your head saying these things look like a muppet? Did you win your argument with them?
UA isnāt joining NATO in the near term either. If you stopped making shit up and asked questions or read things, you might say things that are germane to this conversation.
Liberal brain strikes again. Good guys vs. bad guys. If you criticize me, you must support the bad guys. I have a big brain.
Now weāve graduated to the ālying their ass offā portion of disagreeing with a liberal.
Ah yes, thatās the thing weāre talking about: whether or not you support Russia invading Ukraine.