Want to wade into the sandy surf of the abyss? Have a sneer percolating in your system but not enough time/energy to make a whole post about it? Go forth and be mid: Welcome to the Stubsack, your first port of call for learning fresh Awful youāll near-instantly regret.
Any awful.systems sub may be subsneered in this subthread, techtakes or no.
If your sneer seems higher quality than you thought, feel free to cutānāpaste it into its own post ā thereās no quota for posting and the bar really isnāt that high.
The post Xitter web has spawned soo many āesotericā right wing freaks, but thereās no appropriate sneer-space for them. Iām talking redscare-ish, reality challenged āculture criticsā who write about everything but understand nothing. Iām talking about reply-guys who make the same 6 tweets about the same 3 subjects. Theyāre inescapable at this point, yet I donāt see them mocked (as much as they should be)
Like, there was one dude a while back who insisted that women couldnāt be surgeons because they didnāt believe in the moon or in stars? I think each and every one of these guys is uniquely fucked up and if I canāt escape them, I would love to sneer at them.
(Credit and/or blame to David Gerard for starting this.)
This author touches on a point that dovetails with my thinking:
I think it likely that these tools will not be judged, in the long term, by the ambitions and hopes of the AGI cultists and hype-men, but by comparison to the many other attempts at natural-language programming in English. Smalltalk, Visual Basic, I even want to throw in AppleScript, as simple and threadbare as it was. How are all of these doing now?
AppleScript has been complemented or perhaps superseded by at least two more graphically-oriented attempts at system automation targeted at non-technical users. One could argue that its falloff came from an imperfect marriage with the message-passing/service-oriented architecture based on Objective-C and inherited from NeXT in Mac OS X, a system design which is itself now vestigial. The comparison with LLM coding assistants is imperfect, as they seem to be typically targeted at the more granular level of the class or the method, rather than explicit high-level hooks in an application. A better comparison here would be the last year or so worth of āAI agents,ā but, uhm, ahhā¦
Smalltalk seemed to have a pretty big boom in the late 80s/early 90s, but tapered off rapidly after that. I like the more modern implementation of Pharo well enough, but it strives to throw in everything and the kitchen sink, with a downright balk-worthy amount of packages listed when you open up the class browser. On top of that, a few weeks ago I noticed someone in their Discord telling a newbie that current good practice is to file out your code every once in a while and then start over with a fresh image, as various background processes in stock images typically become unstable over time. This is orthogonal to the natural-language-like design, but it is a stumbling block to the sense of ālivenessā and interactivity that is similarly a big hook for LLM assistance. Furthermore, as far as I know, they still donāt have a stable answer for system-level parallelism in the VM. All Iāve seen is a rather awkward technique for spinning off tree-shaken child VMs if thereās some method you want to run in parallel. Youāve got to really love Smalltalk to want to work past that shortcoming!
VB.NET I canāt really speak to, except that it seems Microsoft now considers it a stable language with little if any new feature development. The original implementation never seemed to have a good rep for maintainability, and the very idea of native Forms seems out of fashion compared to JavaScript web-app frontends. And the land of JavaScript, of course, seems to be the most fertile and uncontested kingdom of LLM coding assistance. Iām genuinely interested to hear more experiences with modern VB, as it strikes me as the last great corporate-sanctioned push for non-technical users to build their own apps, and thus the most worthy comparison.
All this is to say that each of these previous attempts at natural-language programming havenāt bit-rotted too hard, implementations are still available and you can probably salvage a legacy project with some effort. But each of them have been sidelined by industry over time. Not necessarily because of Dijkstraās objection to the ambition of approaching natural language, although I donāt think we can totally discount that as a factor. But other technical or platform restrictions certainly hamstrung each of them. And LLM tools are still mostly API-based SaaS, which always has the glaring technical vulnerability of the provider running out of money. Yes, people will still pursue local models, but the bubble bursting could do a lot more harm to this approach than proponents anticipate.
Thereās plenty of more recent pushes to allow non-technical users to build apps, more than are countable. As far as āgreatā ones, maybe Azure Logic Apps? Itās Microsoftās option for low/no code automation in Azure. Itās all code under the hood, but it mainly works as premade blocks you drag and drop, and connect like a flow chart. Pretty sure itās event driven. Most blocks have some drop down options and settings to fill in the blanks of. I think you can also just have some code as a block too.
Havenāt used it myself, just had to help support some of the input, output, and governance. Also have seen it brought up a bunch in Azure certification paths (work has a requirement of some training courses each year, and unfortunately those are the most relevant ones offered through the vendor we have a deal with).
@wizardbeard @istewart sounds like Scratch tbh
I believe OG Scratch was on top of Squeak Smalltalk, current version is on top of JavaScript.
Yeah like convincing people to start to count at zero, causing billions in damages by off by one errors. Dijkstaaaa!!!
(Im just making a joke/doing a bit here, I dont blame him for off by one errors, counting at zero isnt even the big one I think (more logic errors). Just always find it funny that he wrote a article on why we should start to count at zero. Sorry I dont have any useful input).
E: perhaps some input. Not sure if coding in natural language is ever really going to be viable in serious projects, as at the end of the day it needs to be converted to machine code. And there will be mismatch. Same like writing the law like code. There also is a mismatch there.