By Alice Cuddy BBC News, Jerusalem


The call to Mahmoud Shaheen came at dawn.

It was Thursday 19 October at about 06:30, and Israel had been bombing Gaza for 12 days straight.

He’d been in his third-floor, three-bedroom flat in al-Zahra, a middle-class area in the north of the Gaza Strip. Until now, it had been largely untouched by air strikes.

He’d heard a rising clamour outside. People were screaming. “You need to escape,” somebody in the street shouted, “because they will bomb the towers”.

  • SkyeStarfall@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    59
    arrow-down
    7
    ·
    1 year ago

    Your last point is why I feel like what Israel is doing is just straight up illogical, even from a purely selfish point of view. The only thing they are doing here is basically proving Hamas “right” in the eyes of many Gazans, and fueling a fervent desire for revenge. If someone living in Gaza wasn’t already a terrorist, they sure as hell are much much more likely to be one now.

    Imagine how you would feel if your home and possibly moved ones were bombed like this, losing you everything or nearly everything you hold dear. You lose autonomy over your own life, you lose your independence and rights. I imagine it feels a lot like losing rights as a minority, or something like getting an abortion becoming illegal, turned to the extreme. And these things being threatened to be done to me already cause me to feel strong contempt against the perpetrators. If pushed far enough, things like this would cause me to become a “terrorist”, in the sense of being willing to strongly resist it in an attempt to maintain my rights and autonomy.

    But of course, whether I would be called a terrorist or not depends on how it’s framed, and how much compassion or understanding people would give me. Hell, in the US LGBTQ+ activists, or anti-racist/anti-fascist activists are already called terrorists sometimes.

    • Damage@feddit.it
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      47
      arrow-down
      8
      ·
      1 year ago

      Their plan is to eliminate all Palestinians and take their land. The more each side escalates, the closer they can get to that; sure, some Israeli may die, but that gives them justification to exterminate scores of Palestinians every time.

    • SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      33
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      1 year ago

      There are three lenses through which the Israeli government’s actions make sense:

      1. They are supremacists who were looking for an excuse to escalate an ethnic cleansing they have no way to complete without a goddamn good framing for the Western press.

      2. They’re a far right government looking to appease far right voters who only want to solve a blood conflict with more blood, and never by taking advantage of their superior position to force de-escalation. These are politicians merely trying to conserve their own seats, no matter ethical considerations or what’s good for their country.

      3. Racism, ethnic supremacism, religious bigotry, emotional meltdowns and the unability to see a conflict in any other way than seeing you as the first and last victim are all great ingredients to enter into a spiral of terribly irrational decisions. All of these ingredients are present in the Israeli government and in a good portion of Israeli society.

      • oiez@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        23
        ·
        1 year ago
        1. They are tired of dealing with daily rocket attacks on their population centers and the killing of 1400 civilians made leaving a terrorist group in charge of the region untenable?
        • filister@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          19
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          1 year ago

          So instead Israel kills 11K, and counting, razing to the ground entire neighbourhoods, causing humanitarian catastrophe while refusing any mention of humanitarian ceasefire or even pauses to let aid inside the enclave.

          How noble of them. And by looking at the numbers of casualties and injured on both sides you will see the big picture that this is happening for years and years.

          • PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            Out of sight, out of mind.

            Look how many Iraqis were killed during desert storm 1&2 - makes this look like a picnic.

            • Risk@feddit.uk
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              7
              ·
              1 year ago

              Oh, well I guess if someone else has already been evil before, being evil now must be okay then…

        • VaultBoyNewVegas@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          10
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          They’re so tired of it that Mossad allowed the attack on the festival so they’d have an excuse to carpet bomb Gaza.

          • oiez@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            11
            ·
            1 year ago

            If they were carpet bombing Gaza there would be 200,000 dead civilians.

        • SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          Thinking that murdering 10.000 innocent civilians is justified because a terrorist organization murdered/kindapped over 1.500 is psychotic. Get help.

          • oiez@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            14
            ·
            1 year ago

            First, there is zero information on the number of civilian deaths vs. Hamas deaths, they are all lumped together in that 10,000 number, so good job parroting Hamas propaganda. Second, here is what you sound like to me: “Thinking that murdering 500,000 innocent German civilians* is justified because the Nazi’s murdered/kidnapped a few Jews is psychotic. Get help.”

            *The number killed in WW2, in case you’re wondering.

    • DaDragon@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      21
      ·
      1 year ago

      I think in the eyes of the Government it makes a lot of sense to act the way they do, it’s a great casus belli that has been dropped into their lap to ‘finally’ wipe out Gaza.

    • Kepabar@startrek.website
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      17
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      1 year ago

      No, what Israel is doing makes sense from a strictly selfish point of view.

      The question of ‘Why doesn’t Israel integrate the Palestinians?’ is a good one. The answer is numbers.

      Israel was founded as a Jewish ethnostate. Those who have immigrated there have done so because they wanted to live in a Jewish ethnostate. So one of the core values of the country is that it is primarily a place for Jews.

      If Israel absorbed the populations of Gaza and the West Bank into Israel, the Jewish population would become a minority in Israel if not immediately then within a generation.

      I don’t agree with the idea of ethnostates in general and I do believe establishing Israel as one was a mistake.

      … But if you imagine the viewpoint of someone who does want a Jewish ethnostate like so many in Israel you can see why this solution is a non starter.

    • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      12
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      It’s because their corrupt far-right government wants to wipe out Palestinians. That’s their end goal apparently.

      I just hope enough decent people both Palestinian and Israeli get the fuck out of there before the genocide shit show truly begins.

    • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      31
      ·
      1 year ago

      A bit of a sidenote but I think you’ll be very happy about Hamas’ stance on abortion or lgbtq+ rights

        • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          22
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          In a discussion about Hamas vs Israel, they are saying they understand people resorting to terrorism because they sorta understand how it feels to have their human rights oppressed. I don’t think one can’t mention the irony that the main organisation which had to resort to terrorism in this conflict would not hesitate to kill the above poster for demanding exactly the human rights they cited.

          But thanks for keeping the focus!

          • GoodbyeBlueMonday@startrek.website
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            16
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            There’s a difference in understanding and supporting, or considering something morally correct.

            As another example: I understand why some folks get sucked into gangs. If someone grows up in a crumbling school system, falls through the holes in whatever is left of a social safety net, has no proper familial support, and sees nothing but violence and economic despair day-to-day, joining a gang suddenly becomes a viable path to prosperity. Exceedingly dangerous, but this hypothetical teen can look around and see they’re likely to have a shit future regardless, so why not take that chance, right?

            So this isn’t me saying that I support gang violence, but I can understand why it happens. Which is why my politics are what they are: we don’t need to just beat the shit out of gang members in the streets, but give folks support so they don’t feel like joining a gang is the only way to survive.

            The other poster is (I think) making a similar kind of argument. What the fuck else is some kid in that situation going to grow up to be? Some folks will make it out alright, sure: but on the whole it’s a recipe for despair, which often leads to horrific acts. It doesn’t make the acts right, but we can understand a little more about the why.

            • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              12
              ·
              1 year ago

              Yes that’s all very rational.

              But I was talking about the irony. It’s like if in your example someone would say they could imagine themselves joining a gang by comparing the life in the ghetto to the oppression they themselves felt because they couldn’t bring their puppy to school, but with the added spice that the real life gang the hypothetical discussion was originally about runs a side business of stealing, raping and skinning puppies.

              • GoodbyeBlueMonday@startrek.website
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                ·
                1 year ago

                I had read your initial comment as insinuating the previous commenter was supporting hamas, and when someone directly challenged you on it, you didn’t reject that accusation.

                So if you just wanted to point out the irony, consider my comment as much a non sequitor as your comment on its irony, which is - I suppose - at least irony-adjacent in itself.

      • sndmn@lemmy.ca
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        1 year ago

        Whatabout what your mom does, down by the docks at night?

        • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          11
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Getting sucked off by your dad while he’s humming Israel’s national anthem

        • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          Pretty funnysad that that quote is your only takeaway from that article

          “Israel likes bringing it up to make Hamas look bad so let’s just pretend it doesn’t happen”