By Alice Cuddy BBC News, Jerusalem


The call to Mahmoud Shaheen came at dawn.

It was Thursday 19 October at about 06:30, and Israel had been bombing Gaza for 12 days straight.

He’d been in his third-floor, three-bedroom flat in al-Zahra, a middle-class area in the north of the Gaza Strip. Until now, it had been largely untouched by air strikes.

He’d heard a rising clamour outside. People were screaming. “You need to escape,” somebody in the street shouted, “because they will bomb the towers”.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          A permanent ceasefire that involves lifting the blockade. It worked in 2008 and 2012, except for the part where Israel didn’t actually lift the blockade. Then a real two-state solution, none of this one state, one ghetto and a bunch of Bantustans nonsense Israel is doing. Remember: Peace only lost support in Palestine because it didn’t work, not because Palestinians don’t want peace.

          To quote Bassem Youssef, terrorism is a virus, and to get rid of a virus you need to give the patient water, nutrients and rest. You don’t get rid of viruses by hitting the patient with a sledgehammer.

            • filister@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Hmm, they managed to rescue 1/240 hostages for a month. Apparently that’s a pretty bad score. Not to mention that they are actively bombing tunnels where those hostages are thought to be held, so potentially they have killed some of them.

              And by disabling Hamas ability to strike they killed ten thousand and counting people, destroyed civilian infrastructure, and caused unimaginable humanitarian catastrophe. Committed numerous war crimes and in general they showed to the world that they aren’t any better than Hamas if not worse.

              Mind you by the time this all ends up the human cost and suffering inflicted on the regular civilians would be even greater. And I can tell you that’s a recipe for a disaster. You can’t dehumanize people and push them to the edge and then expect them to co-operate. I wonder what would be left of Gaza by the time Israel sate their bloodlust.

            • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Returning the kidnapped Israelis home.
              Disabling Hamas’ ability to strike.

              And none of those will be accomplished with what Israel is doing. Hamas will need time to recover, but “being unable to strike” isn’t happening. They have enough foreign support and a wealth of recruits.

        • otp@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          I don’t have a solution. I’m half a planet away, and geopolitics is not my field. I’m not a world leader, nor a military strategist, or anything that would qualify me to make a decision or have an informed answer.

          I might be a spineless fence-sitter, but I don’t like what Israel is doing, and I don’t like what Hamas is doing. For that reason, I wouldn’t call myself pro-Israel or pro-Hamas.

        • satan@r.nf
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          1 year ago

          Do you think the number or recruits increased or decreased after incessantly murdering innocent civilians?

        • ???@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I just want to ask also, how do you stop more Hamas by killing people? You don’t. The Hydra effect will guarantee that any one terrorist killed will breed two more. Yesterday my partner looked at me and said, “If Israel had killed my entire family, I would probably join Hamas”, and he’s an atheist and a Brit who learned most of what he learned about Hamas this year.

          What Israel is doing is creating more opportunities for massacre in the future. I am not sure why, but I’m convinced there is a genocidal agenda here.

    • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      It is true that the actions of the military kill innocents. I think it would’ve happened even without Hamas using them as human shields.

      But should Israel simply stand idle as it’s citizens are slaughtered and kidnapped? If so, then why?

      That’s a false dichotomy, and one alternative approach was already provided in the comment you originally replied to.

      the Israeli State holds a humongous power advantage. They don’t use that power disparity to deescalate and integrate the Palestinian people to prevent Hamas from having support. Instead they do shit like this where they drive Palestinians straight into Hamas’ hands, because the Palestinian people are given no other option to turn to.

      Certainly there are even more alternatives that exist in the miles wide gap between “raze all of gaza” and “stand idle”.

      • kick_out_the_jams@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Certainly there are even more alternatives that exist in the miles wide gap between “raze all of gaza” and “stand idle”.

        First they should try to invest into defense, maybe some sort of air defense system to mitigate the almost daily rocket and missile launches.

        • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          How can the IDF pull back and not get another surprise attack in three weeks?

          Now that they have killed so many civilians, it’s gonna be tough. They aren’t making it better as they continue destroying homes, hospitals, and refugee camps though. The time to try treating them like humans was before the recent attack.

          Here’s what I can tell you for sure:

          • You don’t reduce the number of terrorists by making it crystal clear that you give zero shits about civilian deaths
          • Whatever actions would lead to a reduction in terrorism from Gaza are going to start with humanitarian outreach, not bombs
          • And let’s not forget those illegal settlements which are a constant provocation.
          • Whatever the correct actions look like - they are going to need to account for the fact that they’ve just created shitloads more ill will than even was there previously.

          Do my bullet points solve the problem? Hell no. But my (or your) inability to come up with a solution doesn’t mean there isn’t a better one than what they are currently doing, and doesn’t support the idea that their only other option is to do nothing. Neither of us (presumably) are world leaders with experience in this area. But when shit comes out of my sink faucets, I don’t need to be a plumber to know that mine has fucked up.

    • Macros@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      Yes Hamas is a terror organization, no, that does not allow you to behave like a terror organization when fighting them.

      If you have read the article this is not about innocents which where at the wrong place a the wrong time. This article is about deliberate destruction of civilian buildings without giving any justification besides ‘There are some things that we see that you don’t see.’ in some cases evacuation was allowed, in some cases no time for evacuation was given. There is in my eyes no justification for this.

      I never said that Israel should stand idle. So don’t push that opinion on me.

      What could be done? Attack military targets only, give civilians time to evacuate. (Yes a civilian home becomes a military target if it is used as weapons stash/factory, but there was no indication at all in the cases listed in the article), support the more moderate Fatah in regaining control. Support new democratic elections. Provide help in forms primarily targeted at civilians: Food, water, education. Allow students from the Gaza Strip to study abroad. Part of that is already done, but hampered by the military actions.

      Destroying peoples homes and basic utilities will only ensure that hate on Israel grows and support for Hamas remains steady.

    • ???@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      But should Israel kill all these civilians for “revenge” or what exactly is their plan in your opinion?

    • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      This is the thing that gets me - what would you do if someone barricaded themselves inside a house next door, kept taking pot shots and you and stealing people off the street? I would shoot back.

        • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Until you realise you locked them in the house after them and their friends tried to take your back yard when you were having a domestic with your partner, and a founding part of their cult is that you need to die.

          (Hamas not cult, just analogy)

          • Grimy@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Israel is literally the one stealing backyards, and when it can’t, it bombs them.

          • SilentStorms@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 year ago

            Nah if we’re gonna continue this analogy, it’s like if you come across a village of 50 people then force everyone into one house so you can have your friends move into the other houses. Then 1 of those 50 starts shooting at you. So then you drop a grenade in the house, kill a bunch of their kids and shoot their dog.

      • Damage@feddit.it
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        1 year ago

        And would kill 10 innocents in the house just to get to that one guy?

          • filister@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            So how are you any better than the terrorist you condemn, by openly admitting you are ready to shoot 10 civilians? At what number of civilians do you make the cut 20, 50, 100, 500, 1000?