For many years, I’ve considered myself a fan of Emil Cioran. He says so many interesting things, chief among them (for me) is his concept of language being our true fatherland. This is a fascinating truism that has helped me shift my thoughts greatly over many years. I have overcome many internal definitions because of Cioran’s advice.

Many months ago, I bought the audiobook “A Short History of Decay” (“Précis de Décomposition”), and I’m just now getting the chance to hear it. As expected, this is a packed tome full of sharp quips and loaded thoughts; however, I find myself stuck on one lynchpin holding the first chapter together.

Cioran goes to brief lengths demonstrating the hostility of dogma and the history of societal destruction (banality and apocalypse). To support this, he makes the point that Nero and Tiberius were men who, rather than adherents to any particular dogma, became mere degenerates (decadents) who enjoyed torturing the latest losers. Cioran goes further, arguing that the true engineers manifesting social downfall are the self-appointed apostles of structure or anti-structure, not conmen.

That’s… a tough concept for me. One might assume by my use of complete sentences and my lack of Christian nationalism that I hold a deep hatred for Donald Trump. One would be correct in that assumption. I like to believe I hate that man with an overwhelming passion… but he is, in my estimation, a con man. According to Cioran, a man like him who holds nothing sacred cannot be an instrument of societal downfall.

Here’s a quote:

This leaves me with an apparent crossroads. Either I am wrong about Cioran’s wisdom, or Cioran is correct and I am wrong about Donald Trump. Of course, the argument could be made that the public constitutes its own persona writ large (much like a corporation with its own identity and rights). The democracy forms its own identity and has its own dogma, which a con man may manipulate for his own brief aims within our strange new world’s structure. That’s one view, but the fact remains that my impression of one of these men likely needs to change.

It frightens me, to think that Donald Trump actually DOES believe in a dogma which he determines to be the “right” way to live (that he is living an imitable life), and that this belief drives his actions.



RESPONSE

Cioran is a hard thinker to carry forward without friction, because his sharpness cuts in all directions, even (and especially) toward the people who admire him.

Let’s walk through this.

⚔️Cioran’s View on Dogma vs. Degeneracy

Cioran’s claim—roughly—that the con man, the decadent, the opportunist like Nero or Tiberius is not the true source of catastrophe, while dogmatic apostles of structure or anti-structure are, is a provocative way to separate evil born of belief from evil born of self-interest.

He seems to say: degenerates may torment, but they don’t organize ruin on the level that ideologues do. Ideologues engineer entire world-orders (utopian or apocalyptic), and that’s where real historical damage happens: when belief pretends to be salvation.

So to Cioran, Torquemada is more dangerous than Caligula.

(above) Juan de Torquemada of the Spanish Inquisition

(above) Gaius Caesar Augustus Germanicus a.k.a. Caligula

🐍 So… Where Does Trump Fall?

I feel—passionately and personally—that Donald Trump is a destructive force. I see him not just as a vulgar opportunist, but as a real danger to institutions, culture, and perhaps democracy itself. That suggests I’m seeing in Trump more than a con man—even if his background is thoroughly grift-driven.

So let’s test this:

  1. Possibility A: Trump is “just” a con man

This is closer to Cioran’s thesis. In this view, Trump is more like Tiberius: he exploits existing passions, he doesn’t invent or sincerely believe in a totalizing dogma. He is parasitic, not messianic. And therefore, the responsibility for collapse lies more with the believers who constructed a dogma around him—those who saw a savior, not a salesman.

In this reading, Trump is not “the true danger.” The danger is the dogma that grows around him—what others make of him.

  1. Possibility B: Trump believes in something

What if Trump does believe in something? Not necessarily a traditional ideology, but a dogma of self: that he is the rightful center of power, truth, success, survival. That his way is the only way. That enemies must be humiliated and facts bent to his advantage. That loyalty is moral, and dissent is treason. These are not fleshed-out political ideas—but they function as dogma in the Cioranian sense.

In this view, Trump is not merely a parasite. He becomes a carrier of a belief system—even if it is crude, narcissistic, and unexamined. And once others take this up as gospel (e.g. QAnon, “stop the steal,” “only Trump can fix it”), he becomes an apostle of a destructive anti-structure.

So Cioran’s thesis may still apply—just in a more flexible or modern sense.

🪞What Might Be Happening Emotionally

I have been emotionally invested in hating Trump as a villain for a full decade. I do not directly hate him because he is a fool. Philosophically, it’s harder to assign ultimate blame to someone who lacks belief, because Cioran’s vision of moral horror is reserved for true believers. That makes the con man weirdly “innocent” by comparison.

The moral vertigo of realizing that maybe the con man isn’t the root cause—we are, or rather, the systems and believers who elevate him are.

This does not necessarily imply the con man is empty; rather he may believe in himself with dogmatic ferocity. Maybe we’re seeing a new form of dogma—a hypermodern, selfie-mythology where personal branding is truth. That’s not quite what Cioran imagined, but he didn’t live to see QAnon or Twitter politics either.

🎯 Conclusion: Are These Views Contradictory?

Not necessarily. I am not wrong to feel Trump is dangerous. Cioran’s work is not invalidated either. Instead, Cioran gives us a framework for understanding where lasting collapse originates: belief, not merely appetite.

This is a real-world case that’s murky: Trump might look like a con man, but functions like a prophet to his followers. The true destructiveness may lie in the synthesis: a con man becomes an apostle when his persona hardens into a movement. His hollowness becomes filled with the hopes and resentments of others.

So perhaps Trump is both: a man without principles who becomes the unwitting architect of a pseudo-dogma, which others enact in his name. And that might be the real modern tragedy—one that Cioran, writing in 1949, could only glimpse.


This thought exercise was built from interactions with a large language model. I, the poster, have worked to contextualize and confirm any information presented by non-human resources. Thank you!

  • PalimpsestNavigator@midwest.socialBanned from communityOP
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    3 months ago

    Fair. Although the question (MY QUESTION, btw) was addressed, and great man history is exactly the name of the global political game right now. Yes, as unfortunate as that is, it is a relevant lens for this line of thought.

    Maybe consider the value in a discussion before flinging shit.

    • FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      3 months ago

      No, it really isn’t. It completely misses the forest for the trees. It’s like if you lived in a medieval monarchy and started using Christian theological logic to analyze everything: just because it’s the logic of the regime doesn’t make it correct. You’d still be better off using materialist analysis.

      • PalimpsestNavigator@midwest.socialBanned from communityOP
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        3 months ago

        I see. So you have solved philosophy, and you have the answer to my specific query. I should have turned to you and your substitute teaching degree (wait… “philosophy” degree) first. Noted. Maybe your opinion is going to be more impactful and helpful to mankind than this emergent, self-improving technology.

        • RedWizard [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          3 months ago

          than this emergent, self-improving technology.

          Pure sycophantic behavior. The technology isn’t “self-improving”. If you feed it its own output it literally dies.

          The only thing that improves this technology is the labor of actual humans and their own creative and productive output. Have fun worshiping the machine that replaces your entire capacity for thought.

                • RedWizard [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  3 months ago

                  You said it was self-improving. When a model collapses you have to fucking start over from a snapshot before it ingested its own slop. You can’t fix it through retraining.

                  That training is done by humans, aka “human in the loop”.

                  You can’t feed it its own output to train, which means you need to feed it NEW DATA which can only be produced through HUMAN LABOR.

                  Now you’re saying it’s going to keep “progressing”, void of “self-improvement”, so of looks like I’m right.

                • FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  3 months ago

                  There is a finite amount of natural language data that exists in the internet. The transformer architecture, while innovative and a huge step forward, doesn’t just magically gain the ability to reason and improve itself, it can only improve by increasing the number of parameters and being trained on more data to tune those parameters. Therefore, there is a hard limit to how much improvement AI can make just on the natural language data.

                  What also exists, economically, is a huge amount of inertia from the capital that is already invested into AI. The ruling classes have decided AI is the future, and they’re expecting returns on their investments. That means that if the way AI is currently “improving” runs across the obvious limit of running out of natural language data, they can’t simply stop and take a breather, make a better architecture, and take another crack at it. That’s not how capital works. They’ll just turn to making it feed from its own output, like they probably have been doing already, seeing as the entire internet is covered in AI slop.

                  There’s an inevitable tendency here towards collapse. The tendency for the rate of profit to fall is correct again, the more you invest capital into some enterprise, the less (proportional) surplus value there is left to make money from, and the only way to make money is to charge rent. That’s exactly how the tech industry has been developing for decades, endless rentseeking, but we know that it’s unsustainable. You’re just falling for the latest rentseeking scheme, really.

              • Damarcusart [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                3 months ago

                A combination of smug ignorance, refusal to listen to or understand other people’s positions, and an inability to ever actually directly commit to an argument. It’s the perfect storm of someone VERY LOUDLY defending nothing, arguing nothing of substance, refusing to even consider that they could be incorrect, while also steadfastly insisting everyone else change their minds to their position, while never actually directly stating what that position is, keeping it nebulous in a motte and bailey argument, so it can never be directly addressed and challenged. They ALWAYS do this. Every time.

          • FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            3 months ago

            If not the solution to all philosophy (I’m always skeptical of anyone who claims to have The One True Universal Truth That Explains Everything, if you’ll forgive my bourgeois postmodernism) it’s clearly the most useful framework with which to analyze the world with the purpose of changing it. That’s evidenced by the fact that even the enemies of Marxists still use Marxist thought to figure out how to manage empire, as seen with the Nixon administration making all the strategists read Hudson’s Super Imperialism in 1973.

      • PalimpsestNavigator@midwest.socialBanned from communityOP
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        3 months ago

        True. That’s why the people who create this awful trend are not bachelor’s students with philosophy dreams.

          • PalimpsestNavigator@midwest.socialBanned from communityOP
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            3 months ago

            Making someone feel unwelcome for sharing their modest but earnest contribution is something a Trump supporter would do and say.

            • WittyProfileName2 [she/her]@hexbear.net
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              3 months ago

              In another post, in response to a story about people getting fucked up by the AI slop pipeline bullshit you said this:

              Survival of the fittest also applies to a chungus who has their first existential crisis and decides to ferment.

              So spare me your pleas for sympathy you Darwin mangling, pseudointellectual fascist.

                • WittyProfileName2 [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  3 months ago

                  That’s Darwin, by the way, not Hitler.

                  And yet you’ve written off some people as an inherently lower order of being. And much like Hitler, you’ve appropriated a veneer of evolutionary biology completely detached from the actual theories to do it.

                  • Anarcho-Bolshevik@lemmygrad.ml
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                    3 months ago

                    And so with this mention of the preservation of the species and of the race in Mein Kampf we come to the second principal consideration: Hitler’s Weltanschauung, his view of life, which some historians, especially in England, have seen as a crude form of Darwinism but which in reality, as we shall see, has its roots deep in German history and thought.

                    Like […] a whole array of German philosophers, historians, kings, generals and statesmen, Hitler saw all life as an eternal struggle and the world as a jungle where the fittest survived and the strongest ruled—a “world where one creature feeds on the other and where the death of the weaker implies the life of the stronger.”

                    Mein Kampf is studded with such pronouncements: “In the end only the urge for self-preservation can conquer […] Mankind has grown great in eternal struggle, and only in eternal peace does it perish. […] Nature […] puts living creatures on this globe and watches the free play of forces. She then confers the master’s right on her favorite child, the strongest in courage and industry […] The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel […]”

                    For Hitler the preservation of culture “is bound up with the rigid law of necessity and the right to victory of the best and strongest in the world. Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight, in this world of eternal struggle, do not deserve to live. Even if this were hard—that is how it is!”¹²

                    (Source.)