If I don’t clickbait the title people don’t click.
With the recent events happening in Gaza, I decided to first tackle this line of argument in my essay Zionism is antisemitism, and Palestine.
People were quick to say “yes Israel is bad, but Hamas…” (kidnapped 200 people, killed 1000, take your pick).
When you’re saying this, you’re actually saying that one israeli is worth 7 Palestinians. Read that again if you need to; it’s an ethnosupremacist position.
What is the logical conclusion of this argument? What is it supposed to achieve except convey empty platitudes and declaring to the world that you just don’t care enough to have any valuable input?
It’s fine not to care. I’m not your dad, I’m not going to try and change you.
But don’t declare it publicly. Don’t proudly say “well actually both sides are bad”. You don’t look smarter or wiser than anyone else who is taking a clear stance. You’re not taking the “middle ground”. Everyone who has taken sides and is trying to be productive about this (and not just the Gaza genocide, but really any situation where you can apply “both sides”) really doesn’t have time for this holier-than-thou bullshit.
Gaza “kidnapped” 200 settlers and that’s a war crime apparently. It’s not really, but whatever. Let’s say it is. Israel has killed 7000+ Palestinians in retaliation, now likely more than 10k as they cut off communications in Gaza last night.
Both sidesers: what’s your solution to this. If you say anything other than “I should not get involved” then you don’t actually believe both sides are bad and you are picking a side. It’s time you realize where you stand.
Thank you for responding. I hope you don’t mind if we explain ourselves further.
Was it wrong for the slaves to fight back against their oppressors in the Haitian Revolution?
Is it wrong for the Palestinians to defend themselves against this onslaught, just as Jews commemorate their own self-defense every year on Purim?
Esther 3:13:
Esther 8:11:
There has to be a clear distinction between defending against oppression and indiscriminately attacking. Israel claims it is defending itself while it bombs Gaza - this is a ridiculous claim, they are clearly in an attacking posture, launching attacks into foreign territory while indiscriminately hitting civilians. Similarly, it is not right to claim that Hamas’ attack on 7 Oct was them defending themselves or fighting back against their oppressors as they mowed down civilians in the villages they lived in.
Nobody is saying Hamas (it was the whole resistance in Gaza but whatever I’m used to people reducing Gaza to Hamas) was “defending themselves”. “They have the right to defend themselves” is only ever said for “Israel”, because they don’t actually have the right to “defend themselves”. They’re allowed to defend against operations or individual attacks yes, but not retaliate or escalate these operations. Shooting back at the resistance attacking barracks = allowed, bombing Gaza or invading Gaza or taking resistance families hostage to stop the attack = not allowed.
Meanwhile Palestinians are allowed to liberate their country (or fight back against the oppressors as you said) including with violence.
This is recognized by UN Occupation Law.
Furthermore you claim Hamas “mowed down” civilians in the villages they lived in. But according to Occupation Law, the occupier (Israel) is not allowed to bring their population into the territory they occupy (Palestine). But they did. And so they place them in harm’s way.
Again this is recognized by Occupation Law. Attacking civilians in Germany when you’re the resistance in France = not allowed. Killing an accountant in Lyon working for the Nazis because he’s sending people to the camps = allowed.
All “civilians” in occupied Palestine are settlers, they are there illegally. Moreover, they all serve in the IOF at age 18, which makes them soldiers.
There is precedent for this, this is the whole basis of Occupation Law.
Not only that but Israel admitted that only 900 died on their side and 80% were military. Not only that, but survivors of Oct. 7 said that the IOF started shooting at them.
Please bring serious arguments. My central thesis remains strong.
Your argument falls apart because, while you’re using UN law to justify your position, the UN does not recognise the entire region of Palestine as occupied Palestinian territory.
I mean we can argue this from a position of personal morals if you prefer.
I don’t think settler lives matter. They knew what they were getting into and their “passport” gives them visa-free access to dozens of other countries in the world.
Let’s start from here.
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They get visa-free travel to most of Europe and America (both North and South), starting at a minimum of 90 days. From there it’s easier to find a job and once you do, you get covered like all expatriates.
Whether they are legally allowed to get a job will depend on the country but it’s probably not super difficult if you get 90 days visa free for tourism already.
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What about the lives of the children of settlers? People who were born into the situation and have no real say against it? Even if they speak out and vote against it, their voice is often drowned out. There have been several generations of Israelis now, they shouldn’t all be put to death over the actions of people before them.
I think taking the position that “xxx lives don’t matter” is deplorable, regardless of the target. The only morally right position is to weigh up the harm that a specific person may cause, if they will continue to cause excessive harm and have no possibility of rehabilitation then death may be objectively appropriate. Killing someone who is trying to kill someone else is appropriate, killing civilians and journalists is not.
You can literally convert to Judaism right now, move to Israel, get citizenship, and then go into any house in the West Bank and say “this is mine now”. And if the Palestinian family living there objects, you can call the IOF on them and they will arrest or shoot them. It’s your free house now. You used to be able to do this in Gaza too before Hamas drove out the occupation.
Then the IOF will patrol “your” neighbourhood and close off the street to your front door because it’s dangerous for you, obviously, if Palestinians are allowed to interact with you. Palestinians will not be allowed to use this street anymore and if their front door opens on it, it will be bolted and it’s up to them to find another way out of their house.
This is how “Israel” is built, there’s no saving it with voting for the “right people” or singling out the “one harmful person”. They’re all complicit, all “Israelis” benefit from this system on virtue of living in occupied territory.
Haha what a cop-out after your initial legal essay
You’re just parotting Arab nationalists claiming the entire territory belongs to the Arabs/muslims
The other person was trying to bait me into renouncing UN Law.
I don’t renounce UN law. I didn’t even sign it. I have nothing to renounce. I don’t represent a country, I don’t represent a government institution, I do not decide whether my country is a member of the UN or not.
But Israel is a member of the UN and as such recognizes UN law.
So take it up with them if you have a problem, not me.
Where did I say this? You have 4 hours to provide evidence before you get banned and your comments purged.
Yes, I can be an asshole too. But at least I don’t pretend I’m not one.
Your move.
The deadline’s over now. For the others watching, they’re equating Judaism = Zionism and read comments like this one:
I didn’t purge their comments in the end, so they have that going for them.
Settlers are not civilians. They’re actively taking part in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine by occupying stolen land. They do this willingly. And shame on them for involving their children in this.
Shame on them for having children? Shame on them for being born into a country that their parents/grandparents/great grandparents settled into?
Israelis have literally made the same argument in defence of killing Palestinian children. If one side is right in its argument, then so must the other - but they can’t both be right, so both statements can only be wrong.
I think they meant shame on them for knowingly living there with children when they know they would have to go into mandatory IDF service there
That and just bringing children into what is essentially an active conflict zone.
That’s a reasonable position. The IDF is something of a kool aid factory.
How many people are living in North-, Central- and South America? Do you know any (children) there? Do you believe they should all be killed? Where should they move to?
You’ve been banned and your comments are in the process of being purged by the admins, so I’ll try to be quick.
Nobody here is advocating for the death of all people in Israel, the US. That’s not what we mean when we say things like “Death to America”. We’re talking about the state.
Hamas and eyewitnesses say they were careful to avoid civilians, and what do you mean “in the villages they lived in”?
Source? There’s been plenty of evidence to the contrary, including videos directly from the attackers. Hell, they shot up a music festival.
I mean to navigate around the traps you’re so keen to land me in.
Hamas: https://twitter.com/Aldanmarki/status/1712738101108384185
Eyewitness: https://t.me/mangopress/15970
I’m just asking you to defend your claim…
That’s good to see. I’m still not convinced that the entire force that invaded were so restrained, and there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I think any claim that they were all devout Muslims who wouldn’t hurt women and children is just as flawed as the claim that they were all inhuman monsters.
Your eyewitness video itself confirms that people lived there. I was careful not to call it “their” village, but as far as I’m aware the Kibbutzes were newly created settlements on previously uninhabitable land, in contrast to the West Bank where Israelis took over Palestinian homes after making them refugees.
Would you mind providing it since I provided mine?
I really don’t want to go digging through videos of killing, sorry. However I think most anything involving the music festival would show indiscriminate killing.
the festival was held at a military base. There was a tank present from the start. Ergo legitimate military target.
Cops also hid between the crowd of fleeing festival goers, using them as human shields.