I would like to highlight just one piece of a long conversation with the involved party. Way too long. We were talking about the Ukraine war.
I can’t decide which of two things is what’s up:
There is something wrong with me that I care this much about an impassioned debate with someone who’s obviously not real productive to talk with.
It is actually a good thing to disagree vocally any time someone pops up to make lame excuses for rape, murder, shelling of apartments, torture, killing of journalists, killing of opposition party members, lying, destroying civilian energy infrastructure in winter, and through it all blaming the people you’re attacking for not “wanting peace.” I get the idea of trying to “keep the peace” and not turn every comments section into a huge geopolitics fight, but it’s start to look to me like “keeping the peace” by not admitting that some family member is a child molester or something. It’s very weird that this stuff is tolerated and not shouted down every time it rears its bootlicking head.
Anyway, here’s a very selected single through-line of the conversation:
They:
The difference with Palestine is that Palestinians are being genocided by an Imperialist entity. Ukrainians are not being genocided, though the US and UK seem to want that to happen when they sabotage peace talks. Russia is interested in a demillitarized Ukraine, the US wants it to continue so it can continue to aquire Ukrainian resources and damage Russia, and Ukrainians themselves want the war to end more than anything else.
Me:
… your talking points are a little out of date. Russia just recently sabotaged peace talks by continuing to attack Ukraine in ways they agreed they wouldn’t, after coming to an agreement in peace talks. That’s what sabotaging peace talks looks like. Are you not aware that that’s happening?
They:
As for sabotage, it was early in the war, and Ukraine was willing to talk. The US and the UK said no. Pretty clearly a violation of Ukraine’s rights in the conflict to begin with, it’s always been a proxy war using Ukrainian lives instead of the US. Its a free war.
Me:
Tell me why it doesn’t count that Russia blew up a bunch of stuff they specifically peace-agreed that they wouldn’t blow up, like just now within the last few days.
They:
Ukraine is not innocent, though not evil either, the correct stance is a peace deal ASAP. I never said anything “didn’t count,” I am telling you that the best outcome for everyone is a peace deal immediately, and you’re trying to twist that into me loving Russia.
Me:
Is it sabotage of a peace deal to blow up a bunch of energy infrastructure the same day that you agreed you wouldn’t attack each other’s energy infrastructure?
They:
I’d say sabotaging peace deals and violating agreements is a bad thing, sure. If Russia did that, then that’s bad.
Me:
Sounds good. Taking the hypothetical out of it, would you say that Russia did sabotage the peace deal when they attacked Ukraine’s energy infrastructure the day they agreed not to attack each other’s energy infrastructure?
They:
Sure, fuck em, but it would be mutual disrespect of the ceasefire deal. It is best for all parties that a peace deal be made.
And with that, I’m disengaging, like I said I would.
I have discovered that pointed direct questions, without toleration for a lack of answers, is the kryptonite to a certain type of bad-faith arguing. He got butthurt and refused to continue the conversation when I didn’t want to move on and let him slip-slide away from the question and keep talking about what he wanted to talk about and only that.
I would like to highlight just one piece of a long conversation with the involved party. Way too long. We were talking about the Ukraine war.
I can’t decide which of two things is what’s up:
Anyway, here’s a very selected single through-line of the conversation:
They:
Me:
They:
Me:
They:
Me:
They:
Me:
They:
I have discovered that pointed direct questions, without toleration for a lack of answers, is the kryptonite to a certain type of bad-faith arguing. He got butthurt and refused to continue the conversation when I didn’t want to move on and let him slip-slide away from the question and keep talking about what he wanted to talk about and only that.