Why consolidate communities?

One of the advantages of a decentralized platform like Lemmy is the ability to create parallel communities on the same topic. “You don’t like how a community is being moderated? Go to another instance and start your own community!” (with or without blackjack and hookers)

However, this is a double-edged sword. The creation of multiple communities on the same (or similar) topics can also fragment the userbase, leading to very sparsely populated communities.

A few perspectives in favour of consolidation: (click to expand)

https://sh.itjust.works/comment/11171955

I think until there’s some tool or system that helps collate all the information out here, fragmentation is detrimental to growth.

I’m not going to copy and paste the same comment with every mirrored post.

So sometimes commenting feels like a waste of time.

Centralizing helps ensure that there’s vibrant, consistent discussion which is what Lemmy should be about.

https://lemmy.ca/comment/8823953

I like this because people showing up to those communities might think that topic doesn’t have activity on Lemmy, when it actually does.

https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/8370860

I sometimes think that unmoderated communities should be closed, and just be left and locked with a pointer to the active one. In case an issue arises with the active one, they can still be unlocked and used as back up.

Credits to @Ashyr@sh.itjust.works, @otter@lemmy.ca, and @Blaze@lemmy.blahaj.zone

How consolidate communities?

While consolidating communities can counteract userbase fragmentation, it is not an easy process for users to do, and so I thought I’d write up and share this guide.

Taking inspiration from @popcar2@programming.dev’s excellent blogpost, let’s imagine a hypothetical scenario where the pancake userbase on Lemmy is heavily fragmented, could benefit from consolidation.

Step 1: Identify duplicates

Search lemmyverse.net/communities for ‘pancakes’, as well as common synonyms (hotcake, griddlecake, flapjack). In our hypothetical scenario, we get the following search results:

  • !pancakes@lemmya.net (active)
  • !pancakes@lemmyb.net (inactive)
  • !pancakes@lemmy.food (active)
  • !flapjacks@lemmya.net (inactive)

Open each community on its home instance, note the frequency of posts, and check whether the moderators are active. From this, you will often get a hunch for what might be the best community to consolidate to, but you should still keep an open mind as you proceed to the next step.

Edit1: To avoid centralization on large instances, I typically prefer consolidating towards smaller instances, provided that they are well managed.

Step 2: Solicit input

Create a post on !fedigrow@lemm.ee. The post should contain the following:

  1. A brief reminder on the detriments of userbase fragmentation and the advantages of consolidation.
  2. The list of duplicate communities you’ve identified for a given topic.
  3. An invitation for discussion and, optionally, your recommendation of a community to consolidate to.

Example post here (electric vehicles).

Once you have posted, create a top-level comment for each community in which you reach out to the moderators, administrators, and contributors for their opinions.

Example comments: (click to expand)

Paging !pancakes@lemmya.net active moderator @buckwheat_forever@lemmya.net

Would you be open to consolidating this community with one on another instance, perhaps !pancakes@lemmy.food?

Also paging active contributor @maple_syrup_or_die@lemmy.ca for their thoughts.


!pancakes@b.net moderator @spez_ruins_pancakes@lemmyb.net is inactive.

Paging admin @the_boss@lemmyb.net. Would you be open to consolidating this community with one on another instance, perhaps !pancakes@lemmy.food?


Paging !pancakes@lemmy.food moderator @cast_iron_queen@lemmy.food

How would you feel about a potential influx of posters and commenters from other instances? Would you be open to adding additional moderators, perhaps those who were active contributors or moderators in pancake communities on other instances?

These comments will hopefully spark discussion among the pancake enthusiasts on Lemmy.

Edit2: There will often be users advocating for consolidation to whichever community currently has the most subscribers/activity. When this community is on of the larger instances, feel free to gently remind people of the risks of centralization.

If any two communities agree to consolidate, you can move onto step 3.

Step 3: Consolidate communities

When a decision is reached between any two communities, one community can then be closed, and redirect users to the other. You should recommend that the moderator take the following actions:

Example comment: (click to expand)

Would you be able to do the following?

  1. Lock !pancakes@b.net by checking “Only moderators can post to this community”
  2. Create one final post on !pancakes@b.net announcing the consolidation to !pancakes@lemmy.food
  3. Rename the community to “[Dormant] moved to !pancakes@lemmy.food

Changing the community display name is particularly helpful for users when they are searching for communities.

When to NOT consolidate communities?

If there exist two active communities on the same topic, and they have a different significant difference in geographical focus, political leanings, or moderation style, these communities should not be consolidated. This would be an example of the advantages of parallel communities in the Fediverse.

TL;DR:

  • Find all the communities on a given topic (easy)
  • Convince people that consolidation is a good idea (medium)
  • Get people, many of whom may be reluctant to see a community on their home instance locked, to decide on a which community to switch to (challenging)
  • Contact the moderators (or the admins, if the mods are inactive) of each of the n-1 communities and get them to lock each community, with appropriate links to the decided upon community (simple, but tedious)

It can be a bit of a pain-in-the-ass to do properly, and I’ve seen many more failures than successes, but given the potential benefit for the Fediverse as a whole, I thought I’d write up and share this guide. Feedback is welcome :)

  • Elevator7009@ani.social
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    4 hours ago

    to be honest if this isn’t a pinned post or linked in the sidebar i feel like it should be, great writeup

  • BagOfHeavyStones@piefed.social
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    1 day ago

    I just joined piefed since it looks like it merges multi-instance posts with the same article URL. Not quite the same thing as consolidating communities, but great for bringing conversations from multiple communities into one place.

  • unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de
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    1 day ago

    Not consolidating towards already dominant servers is more important than consolidating. This is kinda very important, but just entirely missing from this post.

    If the most active community is on .world, then consolidation respecting this rule is unlikely because .world communties will never accept consolidating towards another server.

    Consolidating should always prioritize smaller servers in an effort to strengthen lemmy’s resistance against power centers.

    If consolidation always moves people to already popular servers you will inevitably get a few servers that hold total control over all major communities and topics.

    This ofcourse also applies to other servers than lemmy.world like lemm.ee, but at the moment .world holds 40% of all lemmy users which is not good.

    US based servers are also something that should be avoided for obvious reasons…

    • Elevator7009@lemmy.world
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      3 hours ago

      Oof, made a post about consolidating !bunnies@lemmy.world and !rabbits@lemmy.world, and saw this a few days later. Although since both are lemmy.world no big loss, and I did leave an option for people to vote for creating a new community and moving there.

      So then I figured I was going to message the mod of !bun_alert_system@lemmy.sdf.org. Awhile ago I said it was good for us to stand on our own, make options, but combining our reach would probably be good if we allow the same content (I think they might be different in that the alert system is just pictures and videos of bunnies in real life, and my community also allows other bunny-related content like media about them, questions about taking care of rabbits, though in practice it is also mostly just pictures and videos of bunnies and any other content like links to video games featuring bunnies usually comes straight from me…). But lemmy.sdf.org is also one of the biggest servers (though smaller than .world), and I saw the discussion below about getting people off the biggest servers too, not just the single biggest one of lemmy.world.

      Also, would probably be bad having just put out a poll on consolidating !bunnies and !rabbits, and then doing a second consolidation towards !bun_alert_system.

      What is a bunny lover to do? I feel it is easier to consolidate towards existing communities than to get everyone to agree to move to a new one.

      • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        2 hours ago

        Also, would probably be bad having just put out a poll on consolidating !bunnies and !rabbits, and then doing a second consolidation towards !bun_alert_system.

        You can probably just suggest on both LW communities to move to the SDF one. Don’t worry, SDF isn’t that large.

    • threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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      10 hours ago

      Consolidating should always prioritize smaller servers in an effort to strengthen lemmy’s resistance against power centers.

      An excellent point. I try to consolidate towards small-to-medium-sized servers, provided that they are well-managed. Servers which are very small, especially if they have only a single admin, have a higher chance of shutting down without warning.

      Edit: Added a few edits to the OP.

  • j4k3@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    I believe you will still end up at the same logic as Beehaw on this path. We do not need a micro niches first approach IMO. We don’t need c/pancakes. We need ultra liberally moderated and very strong c/food first and foremost. We don’t even really need c/3d printing even though I’m a mod there and it is one of the larger communities with regular daily user participation. It could easily be within a DIY, Hobbyist, or Projects community without dominating or detracting from the user base of the broader community. In fact it would probably benefit from the interchange.

    I believe that we try far too hard to replicate reddit when Lemmy is its own thing. The more we embrace that, and build independence as a platform, the more Lemmy can grow of its own accord. We don’t need to be just the reddit alternative like some second class bottom feeder. We can be more if we chose to.

    • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      We don’t even really need c/3d printing even though I’m a mod there and it is one of the larger communities with regular daily user participation.

      I’m surprised about this, I thought that 3D printing was active enough on its own

      Agreed with the rest of your comment.

      • j4k3@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        It is only 1-5 posts per day. That would not overwhelm a larger community like a maker space that included CAD, CNC, machining, woodworking, laser cutting, metal casting, optics, electronics, PCB etching and assembly, repair, hacking, upcycling, Arduino, and SBC hardware. All of these overlap in interests to various degrees. If they were a composite, the community would likely feel much more active and engaging where the user is more motivated to share their little projects and interests more actively, especially when their interests overlap spaces where the interest is not specifically in one niche. Plus you get cross pollination of methods and ideas.

        • threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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          10 hours ago

          It is only 1-5 posts per day. That would not overwhelm a larger community like a maker space that included CAD, CNC, machining, woodworking, laser cutting, metal casting, optics, electronics, PCB etching and assembly, repair, hacking, upcycling, Arduino, and SBC hardware

          I’m interested in 3D printing and CAD, but not the other topics. While 5 posts per day wouldn’t overwhelm a maker space community, the other topics would certainly overwhelm my feed, if c/3D_printing were to consolidate with a general c/maker_space.

          • j4k3@lemmy.world
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            8 hours ago

            It all crosses in various levels of abstraction though. I use it all. That is the major Maker skill that underpins it all. You don’t have to like it all. At our tiny size on Lemmy, all of these categories might have a dozen or two posts tops per day. We need real community like this, not mods posting just to be posting. I want to see real people doing real projects. I want the depth that does not exist with typical content creators on a schedule. I want people that are comfortable posting about long projects that are works in progress or failures and challenges. I do not care about developing good little paid subscription consumers with a monolithic corporate exploitable hobby. 3d printing is just a tool in an enormous arsenal. It can open up a lot of possibilities, but most of those are totally unexplored by most people. I try to post when I do something novel, but I’m not monolithic in interests, and neither are you or anyone else here.

            For example, I would love to have a place to start talking about methods of tracking a rocket with a small telescope, picking optics from surplus to match a tiny streaming camera, and trying to track west coast rocket launches from my house. Stage separation happens almost right over my house. I have no clue how to do something that complicated. I do however have a small Meade telescope with a motorized remote, and a separate ESP-32 based system that connects to an app that can control the thing. I’m in social isolation, very slow, pretty dumb, and I have no interaction with anyone that knows anything about computers or programming.

            I think this is a rather common experience just at different depths of context and resolution. So much of the way we are doing micro niches here amounts to someone performing like a clown for an audience. I think it fills a need to some extent, but I need substance, and a lot more of it.

            This is me talking, not as a mod. As a mod, I do not matter. I am but one person in the community. Right now I’m hacking around with a MSP430 microcontroller, GoodFET 42, Doom emacs, and No FORTH. I need to design and print an enclosure for a couple of boards, but without the greater context, that isn’t even something worth sharing in 3d printing as a hyper niche.

              • j4k3@lemmy.world
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                7 hours ago

                I have nothing to show like that in most cases. The last post on there is from 7 days ago. That is exactly the problem I have been talking about. We need consolidation. We are building branches in the air on a tree with no trunk.

                • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  7 hours ago

                  A lot of other people are probably in the same situation as you: they have ideas for a project, but don’t want to share before they have “something to share”

                  Maybe if you create a post about your ideas with that project that could inspire other people to do the same? In a way, a makers community would still be a niche. !imadethis@lemm.ee is even more general

          • j4k3@lemmy.world
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            23 hours ago

            It would not go over well if I were to do such a thing on my own. I’m not broadly popular or liked by many. I need to be myself here in a less filtered and openly human messy kind of way, but in terms of the unspoken reputation driven hierarchy of a place like this, I have a low rank for performative popularity. The same is true with me in a business. I’m no people manager, but I am very good at telling you (like the owner) about meta data and business moves to make that no one else has brought up or considered. I’m not afraid to be wrong, but given all the variables I’m aware of, I’m often encompassing a larger scope than most; I enjoy the details. These ideas come peripheral to my genuine curiosity and not some sense of authority or arrogant superiority. I’m actually very insecure and nearly hyper aware of my limitations in understanding.

            So when I say these things, like about consolidating communities, I am presenting the idea from the same meta role I naturally take up in real life. I do not want to lead or be popular, I want to be curious even if it is unpopular, violates norms, or some find it offensive. I don’t want to hurt anyone directly or indirectly. I simply will not fall in line with cultural norms that have obvious (to me) contradictions. I am a rogue.

            I will follow through and take the necessary actions, but only if there is a broad consensus and a coalition of the most active users supporting the change, along with someone taking the position of leader that has the social clout for others to fall in line with the coalition.

            • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              23 hours ago

              Who are the most popular posters in the 3d printing community? Could you please ping them here so that we can get their feedback?

              • j4k3@lemmy.world
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                22 hours ago

                I mean all of Lemmy in general. I don’t own 3d printing and I do not support the idea of mod ownership of communities that users post within. If most of Lemmy users and mods are onboard with broad scope consolidated communities, I will play my part in that consolidation.

                I believe you will find that most mods are narcissistic to various degrees. These will fiercely oppose consolidation and this will cause a massive divide that leads to major problems unless someone with the unspoken hierarchical rank is able to lead in such a way that can defeat the polarization. I am not that figure. Simply by stating bluntly that “consolidation is the path to progress” places me at the farthest polar opposition to all narcissists on this issue. Many of these narcissists are quite popular, far more than myself.

                Like I say, I am just the janitor, a servant of the community, and that includes all of Lemmy. If a majority are onboard with consolidation and taking action, I will do what is needed.

                • rglullis@communick.news
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                  22 hours ago

                  I believe you will find that most mods are narcissistic to various degrees.

                  Yep, I lost count already of how many mods of small communities I contacted, asking them if they were willing to cooperate and work together on a topic-specific instance. They’d rather be talking to themselves on “their” community than working together with others to build something with a chance of success.

                • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  19 hours ago

                  I had a look and it seems like the mods on !3dprinting@lemmy.world aren’t the main posters on the community.

                  All of these overlap in interests to various degrees. If they were a composite, the community would likely feel much more active and engaging where the user is more motivated to share their little projects and interests more actively, especially when their interests overlap spaces where the interest is not specifically in one niche. Plus you get cross pollination of methods and ideas.

                  I might suggest your proposition there at some point. That way it won’t come from a mod

  • Alphane Moon@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    Good guide. I would like to point out that you may get some political infighting around instance policies that are not very productive.

    Reached out to !hardware@lemmy.ml (low activity, no mod, but 5K subs) to consolidate with !hardware@lemmy.world (much more engagement, albeit mostly me posting, 1.3K subs). I made sure to take a neutral and non judgemental tone, but I still got lectured about irrelevant things like LW admin policies and so on. You can take a look at the !hardware@lemmy.world modlog and see that there are no issues.

    Haven’t checked, but I wouldn’t be surprised if hardware ML still doesn’t have a mod.

    Let’s hope we can hit 100 K MAU by the end of the year. This will help both organic consolidation and even organic differentiation. I don’t mind different communities, but they need to have their own spin on a topic (subfocus, regional focus etc.).

    • misk@sopuli.xyz
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      1 day ago

      The !hardware situation is not great when considering political leaning of instances and user base and the fact that both will avoid each other.

      Personally I avoid both .ml (tankies) and .world (performance issues, libs). I don’t think hardware is that much of a niche so maybe it’d make sense to start over on a medium sized and neutral instance? Maybe not lemm.ee because that one runs at risk of becoming like .world. I’ll move over wherever.

        • misk@sopuli.xyz
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          19 hours ago

          This one looks perfect for me because there’s no gadget news (which I grew bored of). I’m going to post there but I think it’s best that there’s a separate more gadget’y community too.

        • misk@sopuli.xyz
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          This is a very good initiative that I want to see succeed! My immediate feedback is that I avoid instances and communities without clearly defined rules so that’s something to consider.

          I would also prefer to avoid a situation where we had shows & movies dedicated instance that turned out to be too much for the admin and went poof and so I need to know I can put my trust in a new dedicated instance. I understand it’s a bit of a chicken & egg problem but we need things to be stable during migration waves.

          • rglullis@communick.news
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            1 day ago

            If I feed the communities with mirrors from Reddit, people complain that they are being spammed. If I don’t, you complain that is empty.

            If I say that I am running these instances on my own, people say that is a risk. If I offer them to be put under a consortium of admins, you say that “I just want others to bear the costs”.

            There is no point in arguing anymore.

            • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              1 day ago

              If I don’t, you complain that is empty.

              It’s empty because you cannot sustain posting organically to all those communities by yourself.

              People aren’t posting to those communities and instances because there are more established communities on more established instances.

              If I offer them to be put under a consortium of admins, you say that “I just want others to bear the costs”.

              My point was more that you don’t seem to be able to find other admins who want to join in your project of those 20 instances.

              Every admin team here manages one instance. You’re the only admin wanting to manage 20 at once.

              • rglullis@communick.news
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                1 day ago

                People aren’t posting to those communities and instances because there are more established communities on more established instances.

                I already asked you many times to not shield your opinions by arguing about what “other people do”.

                There is nothing stopping you to say “I don’t want to centralize things around the big instances, so I rather post on the topic specific ones”. And you seem perfectly fine making the effort to push consolidation around lemm.ee and even lemmy.film, but flat out refuse to extend any help to the topic-instances that I run.

                It’s fine that you don’t want to support anything I am proposing because you want to keep this free from “commercial ventures”. It’s fine if you are a hater. But at least do me a favor and stop pretending you aren’t.

                Every admin team here manages one instance. You’re the only admin wanting to manage 20 at once.

                Operations-wise, managing one, two or 20 instances is the same thing if you have enough automation.

                Also, if the instances are not open for users, the real work is not on the operations side but on moderation. This is something that can be done by others that are not admins.

                (and before you come back with “modding a remote community is hard”, I would be okay with opening user accounts for moderators on the instances)

                • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  24 hours ago

                  I already asked you many times to not shield your opinions by arguing about what “other people do”.

                  And you keep ignoring the fact that it’s still the reality. Nobody posts on !television@metacritics.zone , but it’s not against you, nobody posts on !Netflix@sopuli.xyz either.

                  You keep ignoring that, and trying to scapegoat me as the cause of that, but I’m not preventing anyone posting to your communities, people just don’t, because they prefer more active communities, and active posters prefer established communities on established instances.

                  And you seem perfectly fine making the effort to push consolidation around lemm.ee and even lemmy.film, but flat out refuse to extend any help to the topic-instances that I run.

                  Yes, and you know that I’m building communities on other instances to promote decentralization

                  The main difference between those admins and you is that they don’t come up aggressively to me like you usually do, and are doing right now.

                  For people reading this: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39358768/17132379

      • Alphane Moon@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        There is also a hardware community on programming.dev, which would fit the bill.

        My first Lemmy account was on ML which I made by mistake. I have a personal issue with tankies (I am Ukrainian, living in Ukraine) so I immediately switched, LW seemed like a solid choice.

        Contributing to the ML variant of HW was not an option and it was pretty dead in terms of engagement.

        I looked up if there were other HW communities and found a dead one on LW. Asked for mod rights and started contributing.

        The hardware subreddit has 3 million members, so I wouldn’t really call it niche.

        I wouldn’t mind merging into the programming.dev instance if it could be programmatically done and in a graceful manner. Alas, it will likely be a long time before we see such functionality.

        I personally don’t think concerns about LW or lemm.ee are relevant for a social network with a mere 55K MAUs. IMO, at this point focus should be on growth. With growth we will see organic consolidation and differentiation.

        • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 day ago

          I wouldn’t mind merging into the programming.dev instance if it could be programmatically done and in a graceful manner. Alas, it will likely be a long time before we see such functionality.

          There is now a way to ping everyone who contributed to a community to ensure graceful migration, wouldn’t that be enough?

          https://lemmy.world/post/24312613

        • misk@sopuli.xyz
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          1 day ago

          Lemm.ee now has a large user base and hosts some big entertainment communities so my gut tells me it’s already getting too big and we need to diversify before it grows into another Lemmy.world. Ideally the problem is addressed before that actually happens ;)

          • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 day ago

            LW still being at 18562 monthly active users when lemm.ee is at 7180, there’s still a lot of margin.

            Also, by definition there can only be one largest instance, lemm.ee could jump to 10k tomorrow, they would still only be the second.

            Hopefully lemmy.zip can grow too, it’s a very nice instance well managed

            • rglullis@communick.news
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              1 day ago

              The top 10 instances by MAU have ~80% of the total user base, and LW and lemm.ee alone have 50% of the Lemmy MAU.

              An oligopoly of 2 instances (or 3 or 5) is not that much better than a monopoly. If you really want to talk about decentralization, we shouldn’t have user numbers dropping exponentially this early in the distribution curve.

              • Blaze (he/him) @lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                1 day ago

                The top 10 instances by MAU have ~80% of the total user base

                I would go lower and have a look at the top 20

                Seems like a good distribution. Feddit.uk and Jlailu will always have a more difficult time attracting new joiners than non-countries specific instances

                LW and lemm.ee alone have 50% of the Lemmy MAU.

                This has more to do with LW being so high. You could split LW in two, both of the halves would still be higher than lemm.ee

                Also lemm.ee is now the default instance for Photon and Voyager, which is good to allow new joiners to register with a default instance.

                • rglullis@communick.news
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                  1 day ago

                  Seems like a good distribution.

                  Sorry, it’s not. FediDB lists 415 active servers for Lemmy. A good rule of thumb to think as something sufficiently decentralized is when 80% of the users are spread around the top 20% of the servers. This would mean that we need to get at least 82 servers amassing the users that are now on 10 only.

                  This has more to do with LW being so high.

                  huh? lemm.ee alone has 14% of the userbase. 1/7th of the people on Lemmy are there. You are making a huge effort to avoid seeing it, but if you really care about avoid decentralization, lemm.ee should also be avoided just like LW.

    • MemmingenFan923@feddit.org
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      1 day ago

      Haven’t checked, but I wouldn’t be surprised if hardware ML still doesn’t have a mod.

      How is this possible? I thought when a user creates a community, the user becomes a mod.